Newbie with a barrage of questions.

[KevSnik]

I will apologize in advance because this became quite long winded. Refer to the bottom for a quick list of my questions, thanks.
I will start by saying that my ultimate goal is to become a successful instictive shooting hunter. I would like as much as possible to go back to the basics. I have been shooting compound bows for years. Recently my brother aquired a one piece recurve bow (brand unknown) and I love shooting it. For weeks now I have been trying to look up as much as I can about traditional archery, which is what led me to this fine community of archers. I asked several bowshops what they thought I should start with and the only thing they could all agree on was to not spend too much on my first tradtional bow. So I read a bunch of reviews and bought a Martin Jaguar. To say the least, I did not like it at all. It was actually quite a bit louder than my compound bows and it felt like it took all the "tradition" out of what I thought was traditional archery. I made sure the brace height was correct by twisting the string until it was in the dead center of the manufacturers recommendations. I even added a whole silencing kit, (stabalizer, limb savers, and leeches) and it was still extremely loud. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought one of the beauties of shooting traditional bows was the silence. Just a little info on the Jaguar, it is  a takedown and has an aluminum riser.  So is it possible that the aluminum riser was the problem? Or maybe takedown bows are just naturally louder than one piece bows? I like the idea of a takedown bow, the fact that you can break them down and easily take them anywhere, but my whole experience with the Jaguar has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about them. I started looking at one piece bows, and really like the Bear Grizzly, but that led me to a new couple of questions.  It says that the shelf is cut past center. First of all, I hear that a lot of people like shooting off the shelf. It seems to me that in order to do that the fletchings on the arrow would rake agaist your bow every shot. Or is there something I'm missing? Secondly, What does it mean for the shelf to be cut past center? I found a whole forum on tradgang about all the different bows and if they were cut to center or how far past center they were cut. I am very new to this, and really have no idea what this means. My brother's bow that I have enjoyed shooting so much has a flipper rest on it and that seems to work fine, but if possible, I would like to eliminate all the add-ons. Also, I am a decently big guy and was wondering about what weight to get.The grizzly come in incriments from 30 all the way to 60. I will eventually be hunting whitetail deer with this bow, but I also love 3D target shooting, sometimes from far distances. (over 100 yards with my compound)(I'm not sure what a long range shot is considered with a recurve, but realize that i know it is not realistic for hunting and just for fun.)
So long story short, I want a good quality, very quiet recurve bow that I can hunt or take to the 3D target range by me. Maybe I am expecting to much, but I was hoping that it wouldn't be too difficult to find something along those lines. I am not really expecting anyone to answer all my questions, but anything advice anyone could give me would be very much appreciated.
Quick overview of my questions:
1.) Is there any reason I should not go with a takedown? And can takedowns be just as silent and high performance as one piece recurves.
2.)Can someone please explain shelf cut and shooting off the shelf.
3.)Is a Bear Grizzly a decent starter bow?
4.)What is a good poundage to be able to kill a deer and do some long range hail mary 3D target shooting for fun.( maybe 80 yards or so. I know its not realistic, but I'd still like to try just for fun.) I just don't want to be wishing that I'd gone higher in a few months.
5.)Is there any other considerations I should make before going out and purchasing my first recurve bow? I would like my first bow to be able to grow on me and last me quite a long time.
Realize that my ultimate goal is to eventually be a successful hunter with it.
Thanks again for any help or advice that you can offer.
Sincerely,
Kevin

1. Takedowns can be great bows, if they are good quality. They are about the same as one piece bows for performance and accuracy, they may on average be a little heavier to carry around.
2. Shooting off the shelf is shooting off of the carpet, fur or leather on the arrow shelf with no added arrow rest.
3.A Bear Grizzly is a good bow, but you stated that you are a big guy, you may prefer the Bear Super Kodiak over the Griz if you have a longer draw.  I know a man that started out with a 60 pound bow and could not shoot it, so he bought a 45 pound Super Kodiak and shot the same bow for over 25 years, when the new Super Kodiaks came out he bought another 45 pound Super Kodiak, it is almost disturbing how many deer he has shot and he thinks that there is nothing to this deer hunting thing.
4. 40 and up is all good for deer, it is more important to be accurate and have good form and a well tuned set up than to be pulling heavy weight draws.  Everyone has their own learning curve and their own strength, only experience will tell you what yours is.
5.  A 45 pound bow will kill deer anywhere if you shoot it right and it is set up with the right arrows and tuned well. The rest, and this is a big one, is up to you. If you over bow from the start you will regret it.

#1as for being loud, you may be shooting a light arrow since your coming from the compound,9-10 grains per pouind of pull weight  is a general weight for trad.
#2the arrow shelf is cut in farther (PAST THE CENTER OF BOW) like a compound.
#3 the grizzly is a good bow,BUT,you could save a few bucks and watch the clasifieds for a used one.
#4the weight of the bow depends on your strength, if your a big boy ,you should be able to handle a 50# bow fairly easily.
#5refer to #3.

   take into account im not an expert, but there are some here and they will give better answers i'm sure.      good luck.

[Alfie]

Take down bows ar easyer to pack with you, take less space but are some what heavier.
Good made TD are as silent as an one pice, long bows are more silent than recurve in general.

Shelf cut means that the bow has a shelf cut into the handle for the arrow to rest on and shooting of the shelf means just that, the arrow resting on this shelf, some recurve bows has a separate arrowrest.

Can`t say anything about Bear Grizzly other than it's a know brand and probably will meet you needs.

One advance with at TD bow is that you can use diffrent poundage on the limbs, you can start low, say 35-40Ibs and then buy heavyer limbs when you got the hang if it.
We arnt allowed bowhunting here in Sweden yet, but if you search this site and others you`ll find that 50Ibs is a good poundage for deer hunting and archery in general.

I bought a Samick Redtag for starter bow my self and I'm happy with that.

You'll get alot more good advice from archers and hunters on this site for sure, good luck.

[KevSnik]

Ok, thanks for the replies. I want to add that I understand what shooting off the shelf is, but not how cut to center or 3/8" past center will affect me. Like I said, there was a whole forum dedicated to listing all the different cuts from different peoples bows, but they never explained how and why that matters. It seems to me that you would want it cut as close to directly in line with the string as possible to achieve the best arrow flight. Also, when shooting off the shelf, is it normal for the arrow fletchings to hit the shelf when passing it and if this will noticably affect arrow flight? Thanks again.

[metsastaja]

The center cut of the bow effects tuning and can allow for a greater range of arrow selections. You can start with a bow cut -3/16 and by building the side plate out end with one that is 0. This effects the spine of the arrows that may be used.

I would recommend you download and read.
 http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm  this will give you a knowledge base on various aspects of tuning a bow.

Another good tool is Stu Millers Dynamic Spine calculator. It is a excel program that allows the user to input arrow variations to match up with various bow.  Many of us have had great success with it.

The instructions for the program offer a great deal of knowledge and photos.

the link to the home page is.
 http://www.heilakka.com/stumiller/

You really don't always want in direct line with the string, Dick Robertson says that with longbows they shoot better if the arrow has something to fly around, Jack Howard told me about the same thing when i talked to him about his recurves. If you get a bow that is cuts inside of center and you need to get the arrow spine to act lighter you can add a leather pad to build out the sight window a little, with a Hill style longbow, they are often cut more than 1/8th inch from center and one would need to shoot a lighter spined arrow from them at times to get the arrow to clear the bow. the more centered the arrow theoretically the stiffer arrow the bow can handle, but plain old pushing the arrow is not always the answer because of how the string rolls off ones fingers, perhaps with a mechanical release this may be lessened somewhat, but myself, I have always added material to the side of the shelf to get the arrow a bit off center on perfectly center shot bows.

http://nssa.ws/tuning_guide.pdf

Kevin...welcome!

Paven has given you a lot of good and practical info.  If you stick to your goal, you will be able to shoot and enjoy shooting.  Just remember to crawl...then walk...and try not to run...

Enjoy the learning curve!  Ask a million questions (not necessarily a hundred at a time...lol) and you'll do just fine.    

[Mudd]

Here is another of my cliches... Every journey begins with the 1st step but the goal is the journey and not the end of the trail.

Welcome to Tradgang and enjoy your journey along with the rest of us.

God bless,Mudd

[Rustic]

Welcome to Trad Gang. Theres alot of good people and information here. 2 weeks ago, I bought a Bear Grizzly from a fellow Trad Gang member and I could'nt be happier. Its smooth, it does'nt stack and it really zips arrows into my target.
Hope this is helpful.

[Stump73]

Welcome!!!!

[KevSnik]

Thank you everybody for your warm welcome and replies.

I'm still waiting for a reply about if fletchings hit the shelf and effect arrow flight when shooting off the shelf. Paven may have answered that but I think he was talking about clearing the bow left or right.


@Rustic... How is the Bear Grizzly for Silence? and what do you mean it doesn't stack?

Noise is becoming more of a worry for me due to the string slap that I am hearing all recurves have... I am beginning to wonder if I wouldn't find a longbow more appealing due to the silence factor. But I have heard recurves are better in the speed category. I am very undecided right now. Wow, this is unbelievable how much there is to learn... haha...it seems I'm in for a long ride.

[Stump73]

My grizzly is dead silent. No limb slap at all. If you are using feathers  they shouldn't have much impact when hit shelf  as vanes would.  But your arrow hiring the shelf will, which means your noc is probably to low making your arrow bounce off the shelf.

[mahantango]

For a finger release the string rolls off the fingers, to the left for a right-hander and to the right for a lefty, taking the tail end of the arrow with it. This initiates a flexing of the shaft that, when spined correctly, (stiffness), will allow the arrow to bend around the riser with little or no fletching contact. This is called archers paradox, and is why for a finger shooter, cut-to-center risers are neither necessary nor really desirable. Search youtube for slow motion videos of arrow release. A real eye-opener. Hope this helps.

[Mudd]

I am willing to try to help you speed this process up a bit.

If you will pm me your phone number with some times I can call you some basics can be covered rather quickly.

Once you get up to the base line, you'll have a whole new host of questions...lol

I am no expert nor am I a perfectionist. I get really bored with the technical talk about the aspects of bow tuning but I love tinkering with my bows until they feel and shoot the way "I" like.

My buddy Tony will tell you quickly that I'm not much for paying attention to detail because that's not how my brain works. I can't paint by numbers but I feel the art.

I will spend whatever time I need to get a bow feeling "right" for me.

I do not succeed with every bow but I usually learn something, either about the bow or myself.

God bless,Mudd

[tuscarawasbowman]

Originally posted by KevSnik:

Noise is becoming more of a worry for me due to the string slap that I am hearing all recurves have... I am beginning to wonder if I wouldn't find a longbow more appealing due to the silence factor. But I have heard recurves are better in the speed category. I am very undecided right now. Wow, this is unbelievable how much there is to learn... haha...it seems I'm in for a long ride.

Regarding recurves,
Reread your post and realized I didn't help so let me edit this.  As long as you have things set decently right (no limb twist, right arrow etc.) the noise will be negligible. Even if you don't have things set exactly right it'll still quiter than a wheelbow or xbow. Sounds like you have something set up wrong. It shouldn't be that loud. If you're wanting super quiet you wanna go with a selfbow but that is a whole nuther ball of wax. I know trad can be hard to understand sometimes but if you hae any questions you can P.M. me also.

Nick

[RM81]

Looks like you have some good answers to your questions, so I'll just say welcome to TradGang!

[adeeden]

Where are you in IL? If your close I Would be more than happy to help you out on quiteing your current bow or letting you shoot any of mine. The best advice I can give you is to hookup with guys and ask for help and to shoot as many bows as you can to decide which is the best fit for you.

[wat53]

I can help with the Bear Grizzly and the Super Grizzly.  As a recent convert myself I was able to shoot several different kinds of recurves and longbows before settling on a Super Grizz at 55 lbs.  I have had nothing but fun out of it, and took my first traditional kills this year.  After shooting it for 2 yrs, and becoming proficient and confident enough to hunt with it this yr.  You just have to put in the time.  I think the Grizzly or Super Grizzly are great bows to start with.  Check with bearbowman here.  I know of several guys who have bought some of his used ones.  
As far as the feather hitting the shelf, they really don't as the paradox of the arrow bend it around the shelf.