Test Shooters Wanted

[Doug Treat]

I have a theory that I would like help from you guys to test.  The theory is: Using a point of aim shooting system, it is possible to use the same point of aim for different yardages.  Point of aim is different than Gap shooting and some confuse the 2.  With my particular setup I am able to use the same point of aim from 10 yds. to 25 yds. I want to find out if, using other setups, will it work.  In my next posts, I will try to explain with pictures what I'm talking about and how this can be used in hunting.

[Doug Treat]

OK, the difference between Gap and Point-of-Aim (by the way, POA is also, often, confused with point on, 2 different things as well):  Gap, as an aiming system, is the distance between the point of the arrow and the point of impact as you view it at the tip of the arrow.  For example, my gap is about 1" at 25 yds. and it is about 2.5" at 10 yds.  Here is my view at 10 yds:
 

[Doug Treat]

...and here is my view at 25 yds:
 

[Night Wing]

Doug,

Are you shooting split finger; one over, two under or are you shooting three fingers under?

In other words, it might work for one, but it might not work for the other.

[Doug Treat]

On the first picture, you can see where I shot an arrow and hit the target.  I have found that if I put the tip of my arrow just under the target and shoot anywhere from 10 yds. to 25 yds, I will hit approx. 20" above that aiming point.  You can see that the "gap" (the distance between the tip and the point of impact) is very different in these 2 pictures but the POA stays the same.  For less than 10 yds. and more than 25, I have found that I need to reduce my POA to hit the same spot.

[Doug Treat]

Night Wing, I am shooting 3 under.  I agree, it may not work for other bow/arrow combinations or shooting styles.  That's what I would like some other guys here to test.  I have found that my POA from 10-25 yds. is 20".  I know that other setups will be different.  Someone else might have a 12" POA and another shooter might have a 30" POA.  What I want to know is can the POA stay consistent at different yardages with other shooters.

I think I understand what you are trying to say here. Even though the gap between the arrow tip and target is very different, the arrow tip is pointed at the same place for both shots.

Bisch

[Doug Treat]

Here's how this might be helpful for hunting:  Here's what I would see with my POA on a bull elk at 10 yds:
 
The "crosshairs are where I would put the point of my arrow to shoot this bull at 10 yds. and the black dot represents my point of impact.

[Doug Treat]

And here's what I would see at 25 yds on the same bull:
   
Notice the consistency in my POA-20" but my gap changes dramatically.

[Tater John]

So when you hold the tip on the object the shelf is in a different location relative to the two different distances. After referencing the shelf and then drawing to anchor the arrow should hit on target. Gap aiming?

How'd I do?

Rusty

[Steve Kendrot]

What do you mean by "reduce" your point of aim? Lower or raise the tip of the arrow?

[Doug Treat]

So, how to test this for yourself:  Put a mark on a target near the bottom.  Shoot 3 arrows from 10 yds. using the arrow point on the mark.  Measure the distance from the mark to the average point of impact.  Now, go back to 15 yds., 20 yds, 25 yds. etc.  See if the POA stays the same for you at different yardages.  I would like, if you do this test, to hear how it works for you. What is your bow/arrow setup, etc.

[Tater John]

The first photo I see dirt between the target and shelf, second is grass and dirt. Both photos have arrow point at same intended point of impact. This is before bow is drawn to anchor.

I'm guessing

Rusty

[Doug Treat]

El greco, did I answer your question?

[Steve Kendrot]

I shoot 3under too. By your elk example, I'd be shooting the 25 yard elk in the knees if I held the tip of the arrow in the crosshairs. Not sure what you are doing to aim at the knees and hit the lungs at both distances unless you are changing your anchor point or string walking?

[Doug Treat]

Bisch: Exactly!

[Tater John]

I'll try it

Rusty

[Doug Treat]

Steve, look at the difference in gap in the first 2 pictures compared to the leather side plate on my riser.  The POA stays the same but the gap is completely different for the 2 shots.  These pictures aren't perfect because I was holding the bow/arrow and the camera at the same time while trying to simulate my view at full draw, but I think they make the point (pun intended).

[Doug Treat]

Rusty, I was trying to take a picture of what I see at full draw but my photo isn't perfect.  When I shoot this way, I try to hold my POA on the same spot (20" below my intended point of impact at full draw) and my arrows hit remarkable close to the same spot at all yardages from 10-25 yds.

[Steve Kendrot]

Doug. Are you shooting very light arrows? If I were to perform the test you outlined, holding the point of the arrow at the same line and shooting two groups of arrows at 10 and 25 yards, the 10 yard group would hit 9-12 inches above the line, and the 25 yard group about 3-4 inches above the line. I'm having a hard time seeing what you are pointing out in your pictures. A small  change at the back of the arrow (ie. tucking your chin slightly) can change your sight picture dramatically.