Test Shooters Wanted

[Mark of WV]

I wonder if this explains anything?

 

That drawing only shows half of what is being stated in Dougs system. It shows the point of aim being the same for different distances but does not show how much different the gap is at those different distances.

Bisch

[Manitoba Stickflinger]

Having the exact POA from 10 to 25 and the same impact spot just doesn't make sense to me. I believe everyone will have 2 impact distances that have the same POA but everything in between the 2 points will be high hits. Due to the arc of the arrow it's virtually impossible.

The arrow starts off under your line of vision, rises to cross your vision line (10 yards), then spends some time above the line of vision until it drops back to the line of vision (25 yards). The arrow has to impact high between the 2 distances.

[fnshtr]

I think the arrow trajectory that is mentioned above is why close shots (closer than 10 yds for me and my set-up) impact high and why shots longer than 25 yds impact low. The range that POA works well in is due to the trajectory of the arrow.

I suppose it is different for different set-ups, anchor points and shooting styles.

The neat thing about it is not having to judge distance, other than the target being "in range".

When I first tried this system I immediately shot a fist size group of 4 arrows... shooting at measured ranges of 10, 15, 20 and 25 yds. All using the same POA (15" below intended impact). I was amazed.

[Doug Treat]

Mark of WV.  Thank you for that drawing.  I tried to do a drawing like that just this morning to explain this to someone at work.  It does show that you have to raise your arrow tip to hit at 25 yds using the same POA (different gap-same POA).  Now, we could talk about this and how it can or can't work for months, but what I would like is for you, random shooter, to go out to your back yard or your local range and try it, like Fnshtr did (thanks Wayne!) and then tell me if it did or didn't work for you.  I don't want to change the way you shoot, but I want a system that will work for the new trad shooter or the hurt shooter, like me who can't practice enough to be a good instinctive shooter because of injury.  I just need data from you.  Thanks.

[BenBow]

This is similar to the way Hank's pointy system works. I point at what I want to hit with my bow hand finger and I'm on from 10 to 30 yards. I'll try using the point of the arrow to confirm it. What makes this work is visual perspective ie things look smaller the further away they are. Rail road tracks are a good visual example. This show how the gap automatically gets smaller the further away the target is.

[Doug Treat]

Now, Random Tradgang Shooter, If you are willing to try this and get back to this thread with your results, please include the following: #1 Your setup including bow weight, arrow length and weight.  #2 Do you shoot split finger or 3 under?  #3 Did it work for you to use the same POA at different yardages?  How wide a range were you able to use the same POA? #4  What is your POA?  For example, for me, it is 20" and for fnshtr, it is 15".

[Doug Treat]

...and so, if I were to reply to this with my test results, it would look like this:

#1  42#, 32", 630gr.
#2  3-under
#3  10-25 yds.
#4  20"

Just to keep it simple, it would be helpful for me if you simply respond in this format.  Then you can add your comments under the results. Thanks

[fnshtr]

#1 46#, 28.75", 630 gr.
#2 3-under
#3 10-25 yds.
#4 15"

[Doug Treat]

Thanks fnshtr.  Anyone else?  I would like to get maybe 20 or more of you guys to try this if possible.  Another little hint:  Sometimes I focus on the POA and the arrow point below the point of impact(POI) and sometimes I still focus on the intended POI and I just note when the arrow tip is at the POA in my periferal vision.  One might work better than the other for different shooters.

When I shoot I don't really point of aim shoot, I just know that is where that spot is indirectly. The reason for that, with me putting the arrow just shy of and behind the front hoof on the deer, is because when the deer is closer it is visually larger, then as the deer gets farther away it is smaller, so I actually do raise the bow as the distance increases, it is just that the target is smaller. That would also explain how I can shoot over the back of a yearling and catch myself over analyzing my aim, when I was filling doe tags, they are shorter. I also shoot tighter groups when I don't get all mechanical with aiming and do just as Hill said "bore a hole through it."

[Doug Treat]

Pavan, You described POA exactly "I actually do raise the bow as the distance increases, it is just that the target is smaller.".  It sounds like you have about 25"-27" POA.  I also shoot better with a more "instinctive" shot, at least at closer ranges up to 15 yds.

[knobby]

Doug, I know exactly where you're going with this. And yes, it can work in a hunting situation. I used it to tag a late season doe a number of years ago, but my target panic prevents me from using it now.
For the guys that have their old Traditional Bowhunter magazines, go back to the June/July 1999 issue and read Roy Marlow's "Advanced Aiming" article on page 70. He explains it very well with illustrations.
 I believe the concept Doug is getting a grasp on is, within certain parameters, on close shots on game, the arrow impact will be a higher lung hit. On the longer shots within the pre-determined parameters, using the same "point-on" picture, the arrow would strike lower in the chest.
  The variable involved is the size of the target. Going from an elk to a rabbit is sure to create some issues, but for someone that just hunts whitetails for example, the target is always relatively the same size.
  I don't recall the equipment used on that doe, but it worked like a charm. By getting the arrow right up under my eye while shooting three under, I was able to use the bottom of the deer's chest as my point-on aiming location. That was my intended goal, because I didn't want to be looking so far below the intended inpact point. I had a second nock set about an inch or so below the other one. I placed my index finger right under that one, rather than right under the nock. Through experimenting with the lower nock set location, I was able to keep my arrows in the chest of the deer target within my usual whitetail hunting distances, all by just placing the front of the arrow on the bottom of the deer's chest. It's actually easier to do than it is to explain.
  Hope this helped.

[Bel007]

Nope

Did not work for me.  Every 5 yards back my point of aim had to drop.  Keeping the same point of aim made my point of impact rise.

#54 29.5" 620gr
split
10yrd=15", 15yrd=20", 20yrd=24", 25yrd= 28"

While I did not pay attention to the "gap" (not sure exactly what that would look like in my sight picture) I would say my gap stayed much closer to the same than did my point of aim.

Neat experiment for me though.  Thanks for making me think.

I played with it a little today but like I said earlier, when I try see where the point is at I lose focus. I could not get any kind of consistency to try to come to a meaningful conclusion and gave up after a while.

Bisch

[tecum-tha]

To develop instictive shooting ability at ranges further than 20 yards takes time and the right practice. I see this POA system you describe as very hard to use in a real hunting situation.
For a beginner who wants to hunt with a traditional bow, there is nothing wrong with using a simple pin sight. A lot of field archers used them in the 50,60 and 70ies. I tried a simple sight like that on a Bob Lee bow from the sixties. With a correctly spined arrow (my test arrows were overspined) my left and right would have been better and  I used only one pin.
I used this system the first time from 10-25 yards. All what I decided was: Is it a short, medium or long shot? Medium the pin was spot on, short you had to put the pin a little under your intended spot, long a little over intended point of impact. Basically, the pin sight is more gap shooting, but very easy to master. It took me about 10 shots to dial the one pin in at about 17 yards. Then another 10 shots or so to see how far up and down I had to go with the pin.
After that I did some quick hunting style shooting at my 3D deer. About 50 arrows. Not one of the arrows was missing the kill zone and every shot was taken from a different position/ distance.
Another thing is to accept an approximate sight position, approximate is ok. We're not blowing off nocks we train to  hunt. If you hit the deer in the heart or an inch higher and double lung it, it makes no difference in the ethical outcome. My shot took me about 1- 1,5 seconds longer to take than shooting instinctively and I am shooting usually very fast.
I personally think it makes no sense to have a POA somewhere in the landscape or in the air shooting at something that "acts independently".
A normal target does not act independently but stands still and doesn't move. Much more prone to optical delusions in the woods,too.
My final opinion: The recurve field bow from the 60ies/early 70ies was an absolute deer killing machine. With an elk it is even easier, because of a bigger killzone.

[Canyon]

Doug what you describe was in a TBM article several years ago. I think it was by Roy Marlow. I will try and find it. It does work but will obviously be different for various forms and set-ups. This is the same as using the maximum point blank range with rifles by using the area in which the projectile remains in the kill zone when held at a particular spot.

[Canyon]

Just saw Knobby had it posted above. June/July 1999 issue of TBM.

[Tater John]

I'm not doing it right I suppose because I'm no where close to what your looking for:

50#@28" 2016 165gr. 29", draw length 28", split finger, arrow weight N/A

10 yds. point about 18 feet in front of the target, now from 45-50 yds. I hit the bag holding point on the bag. I don't believe this is what your after, sorry.

Rusty

[longbowben]

60@28  610gr
2" under at 10
1 1/2" under at 15
right under  at 20
cover at 25
3 under middle finger in corner of mouth and index finger in cheek bone.