Hills and long draws...it can happen...

[Looper]

I've noticed that on more than one occasion I see comments that cast doubt on whether or not some folks really do have or need a long draw with a Hill-style bow. Or, they insinuate that a long draw with a Hill indicates something is wrong.

First, a little background. I'm 42 and have been shooting trad bows for a long time. Probably over the span of 30 years or more, with a brief hiatus or two, strewn in there. I shot hickory self bows for the vast majority of that time. Most of those bows had a straight grip that I copied from the handle of an old broken bow my Grandfather owned.

I've owned several different bows over the years. I'm not a collector by any measure, and really only like to own bows I'll use. My longest lasting, most used bow was a 55@28, 70" fiberglass-backed lemonwood bow I bought at a trade show. I shot a lot of stuff with that bow. It met an untimely death a few years ago, when I tripped on a root and fell onto it. I've owned a few compounds, but always shot them bare, with no sights. A peep sight seemed like a great hinderance to me. I'm certainly not opposed to anyone that wants to shoot one, but I much prefer the simplicity of a longbow.

I've had a few recurves, but never did develop an attachment to any of them. They just seemed so noisy compared to the longbows. I've also owned a few d/r bows. My favorite, an OL Adcock, non-acs, was a stellar bow. The grip didn't fit me well, but that bow was a very stable shooter. Too bad it delaminated. Currently, my go to bow is a Hill Halfbreed, 69", and marked 45@29. It's a touch too short and I've had to build the grip up to fit my hand, but I really enjoy shooting it. It's actually the first real Howard Hill bow I've ever owned, or at least the first one with the Howard Hill name on it. I do have a couple of really heavy older Hill-style bows that don't have any writing on them, so I'm not sure of their origin.

Physically, I'm 6', with a 77" wingspan and right-handed. I have long arms, broad shoulders, and big hands. Due to a wrist injury, I find it very uncomfortable to shoot with a straight, high wrist. I've also got some bone chips in my left elbow that keep me from completely straightening my arm, so I can't physically shoot with a completely extended and straight bow arm.

I'm basically self taught. I shoot split fingered and anchor with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth. I do have good alignment, at least in comparing myself to Terry's Form Clock. Aiming wise, I consider myself an instinctive shooter. I'm aware of the arrow point in my peripheral view, but I try to focus intently on the spot I want to hit. I am a deliberate shot and hold at full draw for a second or two, maybe a lot longer if I need my quarry to move some.  I always shot with my bow hand adding pressure to the middle of the bow handle. I do hold on to the bow with some grip pressure, not a lot, though, and not enough to torque the bow. I prefer to have a little pressure on the back of the bow with my ring and middle finger, directly opposite the pressure that I put on the belly side of the grip. At the shot, with my Hills, and my others, for that matter, I perceive very little handshock, just a mild thump. The bow doesn't jump around in my hand. I'll note that I do shoot around 12 gpp out of all of my bows.

I'm accurate enough take a lot of squirrels and rabbits every year, in addition to the odd coyote and whitetail. I've also shot several hogs over the years. I shoot every day, if I can, with 99% of my shooting consisting of roving and stumping, shooting one arrow. There is definite room for improvement, but when I'm out shooting, I never think to myself "I wish I could shoot better." If I miss, I usually know why.

With my straight-gripped bows, my draw length measures 29" from the throat of the nock to the inside of the grip. It is the same with my Hill with the locator grip. It's 29-1/4" on my Black Creek Banshee which has a low locator grip. I currently don't own any high grip bows, so I can't say what it would be with one. My Halfbreed is 2" deep from the belly to the back of the grip, so that translates to a 31" draw. Remember, this is with heel down, slight elbow bend, and anchor in the corner of my mouth.

At any rate, back to the main topic of this post. After reading several of the comments that I mentioned earlier, I began to think maybe I am, in fact, doing something wrong. I read that some guys went from a 31" draw with a recurve to a 28" or even 27" draw with a Hill.

Just for kicks, I went out and tried to shoot a 28" arrow. There is no way I could shorten my draw that short. The only way for me to do that was to either have my bow arm elbow bent way too much, which required a lot of use of the arm muscles, or the string floating out in space in front of my face at anchor. I could shoot that short by dramatically opening my shoulders to the target, but that threw my alignment way off. My hand would fly away from my face upon release, and it just plain felt weird. There was no way to engage my back muscles. I was still pretty accurate at 15 yards, but not nearly what I am normally.

Now, I'm not saying that a fellow who shoots with a locked arm and a straight wrist won't loose some draw length when going to a Hill-style bow. Certainly he will. A Hill won't respond well to that type of form. But personally, my form doesn't vary very much between different styles of bows. I'll never be able to shoot with a completely straight bow arm. I shoot all of my bows with my hand on the grips, and the straight wrist is uncomfortable for me. Essentially, the difference in draw lengths for me will be the difference in the thickness of the grips of the bows, and the slight difference in the grip angles. It's almost a pointless endeavor to make a statement about someone else's draw length without seeing them shoot.

[atatarpm]

Love it sir!  Ric

[Chain2]

WOW !!  I am not the only one. I tried to shorten my draw and I can't get a consistant length. Allbbeit, I didn't try for long. I have to get a video posted.

[dragonheart]

Here is a photo of Hill and Guy Madison shooting.  Draw length will fall where it is based on arm length, body strucuture.  The hill style has bend in the arm.  If you want shoot longbows with a straight arm, don't think anyone is saying that is wrong.  It is not Hill style to shoot with a straight arm if you follow his guidelines and those of John Schulz.  Asbell in one of his articles talks about shooting that way.  Hill and many other longbow shooter in the past shoot a bent arm, heel down on the bow, casual and relaxed style.  Here is a picture to give perspective.  Yes, the bow arm is bent alot, and more important is the feel of the bow shoulder is "low and back" in the socket so to speak.  Does it "feel" really bent, yes.  Does it become natural after doing it awhile, yes.  That "awhile" does not come over one or 2 practice sessions.

 

[Mudd]

Prior to adopting the Hill swing style of shooting my draw was 28" and when I 1st started trying to copy what I saw on the Schulz video my draw dropped to about 25&3/4 but within about two weeks my draw lengthened back out to 28".

I wish I could explain what happened but alas I can't completely.

I do know that once I started to focus on my back muscles the draw lengthened.

Now my draw and release feel as natural as anything.

God bless,Mudd

[dragonheart]

Think about this.  When you shoot a heavy weight bow for yourself what happens?  If I draw a 75 pound longbow I will use my back muscles, and lock my bow shoulder in to get stability to pull it.  From my experience shooting a lighter weight bow is more difficult in this style than a heavier one.  With a 50 pound bow I have difficulty shooting this style.  There is not enough resilency and I overextend my bow arm.  With more weight the bent arm comes up, and my back muscles take over in getting the bow to full draw, as an added plus more power, and crisp release.  Not saying to overbow, but shoot a heavier bow 60# or above a few shots and see what happens.You can really feel this with a heavy bow once you have the mechanics down.

[dragonheart]

How about photos of bow arms and the bend?  These need to be taken while you are actually in the shooting process.  If you stage it by just drawing that is what you get a staged presentation instead of how you actually look at full draw when shooting.  Here is mine.  I am actually more bent now, getting closer to the picture of Hill.

 

[dragonheart]

When the heel is down on the bow, bow shoulder low and back and locked in the socket there is no need for arm strength.  You have a feeling of "bone to bow", the bowhand wrist is broken and the forearm bone is "going into the centerline of the grip.  Slight pressure with the bottom 2 figers is all that is needed.

[WESTBROOK]

The big X in the whole equation is how much bend in the arm? Should the arm look like a dogleg?

Back to G.Fred, he tried to find out the same thing, everyone said you need to bend your arm, but no one knew how much. He basicly concluded that, the broken wrist applying pressure to center of the grip and not locking your elbow is enough bend, any thing more is just shortening your draw. I tend to agree with that.

I'm 6'3"+, long and lanky, 76" wingspan. I draw 29.75" all day long with my Hill bows. With a high wrist recurve close to 31.

The best way I can describe it is (someone else said it this way). If your standing there with an arrow nocked and waiting for that critter to take that last 1/2 step, bow out infront of you, fingers tugging on the string, look at your bow arm...should have a little bend in it cuz you cant comfortably straighten out your bow arm while iin this postion. Thats basicly where my bow arm stays, with that little bend in it.

A lot of pics I see of Hill bow shooters it look like they are not drawing all the way, there drawing elbow is pointed right at the camera instead directly behind the arrow.

Not trying to say whats right or wrong but there is no need to give up more than a couple inches just cuz you switched to a Hill style bow, less maybe they move there anchor fwd also.

Just my 2 bits

Eric

[Blaino]

i think of it more as a "flexed" elbow instead of a "bent" elbow.... but thinking about my shot gets in the way of my shooting!

[southpawshooter]

I agree with Westbrook and G. Fred in that placing your bow hand in the heel down position creates enough bend in the bow arm. I've been thinking about the pronounced bend in Howard Hill's bow arm and recall a comment he once made about a 28" arrow being the most efficient.  Considering his possible draw length based on his stature, I'm sure he could have drawn further.  Getting a longer wood arrow in a longer draw length at his preferred draw weight would have been difficult.  Could it be that his bow arm bend is more a result of his arrow selection than form?

[cbCrow]

Southpaw, you beat me to it. That is precisely why he shot the way he did. Matter of fact I read where he experimented with steel tubing for his africa hunt so he would be able to stretch it out more to gain more of a power stroke. I have been shooting Hill bows since the 80's and always adapted to them, so I could be more effective as a hunter. I never shot one to be Howard Hill, I shot them because I liked them! I use my style, not someone else's, that works for me.

The shoulder position has as much to do with your draw length as the bent arm and wrist. The natural tendency to lean into the shot for some can really get them into an open stance, even more than what Hill had from what I have seen.  For me it makes a full inch of draw without even feeling it.  That is one of the reasons I like to keep my arrows so that I can tag the point.  For someone with a 77" spread and a 31" draw plus other joint issues will not fit the average and of course there is always more than one way to pull a bow back.  But for those that wish to shoot with a more squared up and rigid form, they usually find that a higher gripped bow to be more accommodating for their way of shooting. G Fred went towards the BW recurves with his and that is totally understandable, but at the same time I have seen many guys trying to shoot Hill bows with that straighter squared up form that were totally frustrated with their Hills. I think one should shoot what ever bow they find most comfortable for them and the form that they find most natural.  If I had long arms and felt that I could effectively hunt with a straighter form, I would be hunting with a Stotler recurve, with no regrets about not shooting longbows.

[sticksnstones]

I draw my 70" Big Five just over 31", I tried to change my style but it didn't work for me.  The bow handles the long draw just fine and it spits heavy arrows plenty fast!
Thom

[WESTBROOK]

I didnt make my post to knock the Hill style of shooting. I shoot more like Hill than "unlike" him. Just never figured out the dogleg bowarm. I too have heard the reason was that he wouldnt shoot over a 28" arrow, guess only Howard really knows why.

My original point was that you dont have drop from 31" to 27" of draw just because you change bows. Maybe because, looking back, I shot my recurves more like a longbow in some ways. Never been an upright squared off line shooter, its always been based on what works best for hunting.

Howard was a great shot first and formost because...he was a great shot. Probably would have been just as great if he could have got some long stiff.300 carbons and straighted his arm a little increasing his draw length an inch or so.


But anyway...

Eric

Eric

[Irish Archer]

Eric,

Sounds about right to me. Also, if Howard would have had clear glass to build his bows with, they'd have been better looking bows! IMHO.

If one figures Eric's 77" in ratio to his 31" that is really no different than my ratio with my draw and a slightly shaped gripped longbow which is 26.5" with my 67.25" wingspan. With recurves it is 27" and my bow arm is not locked, so he really is not off on the long side from a lot of others with shorter arms. The ratio of bow length to draw is quite different than the average, 2.258" of bow for every inch of draw with a 70" bow. That would be the same as a 59.27" bow for my 26.25" draw. That bow would be showing some major arc at full draw. Maybe there should be a longer longbow for that draw. But on the other hand perhaps that extra bend in the bow arm and open stance helped get Hill to the fluid accuracy that he was famous for in the first place.

[Looper]

Originally posted by dragonheart:
When the heel is down on the bow, bow shoulder low and back and locked in the socket there is no need for arm strength.  You have a feeling of "bone to bow", the bowhand wrist is broken and the forearm bone is "going into the centerline of the grip.  Slight pressure with the bottom 2 figers is all that is needed.

You're right, but if you try to purposefully add more bend in your arm, you will use your arms muscles.

[dragonheart]

Originally posted by looper:
 

Originally posted by dragonheart:
When the heel is down on the bow, bow shoulder low and back and locked in the socket there is no need for arm strength.  You have a feeling of "bone to bow", the bowhand wrist is broken and the forearm bone is "going into the centerline of the grip.  Slight pressure with the bottom 2 figers is all that is needed.

You're right, but if you try to purposefully add more bend in your arm, you will use your arms muscles. [/b]

I disagree.  If you break the wrist, bend your arm and get the heel of the hand far enough into the center line of the bow, you will not increase the tension in arm muslces in the bow arm.  The other component is the low and back bow shoulder, locked in.  In phots of Hill you can really see this.  His arm is not tensed up.  

There are people that shoot Hills with a side pressure grip.  They "squeeze the sap out of it" so to speak.  

Look at Byron Ferguson's form.  He has a broken wrist, bent arm, but is NOT squeexing the fire out of the bow and "muscling" it.  He does have pressure and writes about this in his book become the arrow.  He is not using arm muscles to control the bow arm.  Allowing the bowarm to flex naturally without tension.  The more I have bend, and with proper placement of the heel of my hand in the centerline of the bowgrip, the less I have to grip it.  I can shoot with slight pressure and a finger-sling.  If you shoot with pressure on the "side of the bowgrip" squeezing the sap out of it, you are correct in that you will have to use more arm tension.

For me the key is to having the bow shoulder low and "locked into socket" and the bent arm relaxed.

[Looper]

You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you already do those things, shortening your draw by  bending your arm MORE, will cause you to use your arm muscles. Whatever your draw length is, try to shorten it 3-4 inches by bending your arm more.