Hills and long draws...it can happen...

[WESTBROOK]

Jeff, buddy I read and re-read your post several times today, just couldnt get that "low bow shoulder" thing in my head as to what you meant. I just went out and shot the last 20 minutes of daylight and I think it finally sank in. Its tough to put into words, guess thats why I didnt understand at first.

Everything else you said made sense and lines up with how I shoot. My bow arm is relaxed, wrist bottomed out and light grip on the handle, I could shoot open handed if I wanted to pick my bow up every shot.

Got a few things to work on now.

Eric

[Looper]

Besides, I wasn't talking about shooting exactly like Howard Hill. I was simply trying to make the point that there are folks who shoot Hill-style bows effectively without loosing 5 inches of draw length, when switching from other style bows.

John Schulz commented about arm strength in a phone conversation I had with him. He said that some guys just don't have the arm to shoot heavy bows.  There is a bit a muscle development that happens when one shoots a longbow Hill style.  Hill worked on that strength regularly, so did Schulz.

[Nate Steen .]

FWIW....

I'm 6'2" and have a wingspan of 78+" and shoot a draw of 26 3/4 bop with a 2 1/4" deep handle.  I have my bow shoulder settled 'back' into the socket like a bottomed out shock, my arm is bent a little with the elbow pointed down rather than out, and my wrist is bent almost to it's max at about 75*.  I don't lean into the shot any more than I lean into my shotgun.  I shoot with my shoulder at right angles to the target, my body facing 90* or more away from the target and my hips rotated more than 90* away from the target.  It is a very powerful position like the old english longbowmen used when 'shooting in the bow'. I can shoot very heavy bows this way without sacrificing stability because I'm not floating my bow arm around in the shoulder socket and I'm not gripping the bow on the side.  I can draw and shoot with my fingers completely open which shows I'm gripping the bow in the sweetspot of the palm. I also tilt my head forward slightly instead of holding it straight up.  All of these factors help in keeping my draw length reasonably short.  When I shoot a recurve or r/d bow, because of the different grip style, my draw increases about 1 1/2".  I believe that draw length in the Hill style is a factor resulting in the sum of many small parts.   Fluid motion is my key thought, just like shooting a shotgun over pointed birds.

If I would venture a guess...most guys I've seen state their draw length have done so in front of a mirror, or in front of someone watching, and they are NOT shooting.  In essence their drawing form is very static.  When I draw this way I also draw longer.  But when I shoot, and this is key...."I become fluid because I'm thinking about the shot and not my form, which lets me react to the game and react to the shot situation and because I'm not thinking about form, my draw length is it's natural fluid length."  When I have these debates with most archers, I have them draw colored lines on their arrows every 1/2" from about 25" to the end of the arrow and then while shooting NATURALLY AND FLUIDLY have someone watch to see which line they consistently draw to.....  while shooting level, up and down and sitting and kneeling....I've only had two guys tell me that their draw length was the same as in front of the mirror.  The vast majority of shooters tell me that they would never believe their draw length while shooting was actually as short as the colored lines on the arrow displayed.  Try it for yourself. And remember not to try to stretch out the draw.  Draw and shoot as smoothly and rythmically and fluidly as possible, just as you do in the field....see what the colored lines tell you....  

[dragonheart]

Originally posted by looper:
Besides, I wasn't talking about shooting exactly like Howard Hill. I was simply trying to make the point that there are folks who shoot Hill-style bows effectively without loosing 5 inches of draw length, when switching from other style bows.

I agree.  People can shoot Hill style bows in different configurations of form, and make it work.  With that said that does not equate to shooting the form or technique that Howard Hill and his protege John Schulz advocate.  

The idea behind the bend in the arm is mobility, and a relaxed style.  That is based on John Schulz writing and DVD.  He was taught by Hill and never deviated from his teachings in shooting form based on his video.  The mobility is to adapt to a moving target for quick shooting.

Will you loose 5 inches?  No, I know you are exagerating.  In returning to shooting "Hill-style" I have lost about 1 1/2" of draw length.  I have gained discipline, a more relaxed attitude (helped with TP issues), mobility, confidence, a standard to return to when I have some glitch in my technique, and a form that allows me to shoot more bow weight for hunting.          

I disagreed that arm strength is needed.  Yes, there is strength needed on some level to shoot a longbow.  We can all benefit from being fit, no matter how you bend your arm!        :p      You can build on that and it helps for sure.  I just don't see where bending the bow arm vs. straight arm requires more strength as long as the bow shoulder is low and back in the socket, and bow grip are in proper position.  From my experience, when I grip the bow properly, I only need enough to hold onto the bow at recoil.  

When I grip on the side of the bow, then I really have to get a hold of it to control it.  That is not a relaxed way to shoot for me.  When I do it right, the slight grip pressure is more with the bottom three fingers, with the pointer only along for the ride very relaxed.  Bow is "seated" in the grip, centerline of bow on the heel of hand.  

Watch this video of Hill.  I think this video may illustrate what I mean.

    http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000004

[dragonheart]

"...into the socket like a bottomed out shock"
Nate Steen

Yeah that is it!  thank you!

   

[Looper]

I went out a little while ago and shot several of my Hills. I took a 45@29, a 50@28, and a 75@28. I noticed that I had a much lower bow shoulder with the heavy bow and my draw length shortened to around 30.5". I guess I was engaging my back muscles better with the heavy bow. After thinking about it, I went back out and shot my 45@29 with the same low and back shoulder. My draw did shorten to the same 30.5", maybe a touch more.

I had my wife take some pics for me. It's hard to tell in the picture, but I'm about 1/2" from the 31" mark on my arrow, so this is about a 30.5" draw. That arrow is 32.5" to the back of the point.
   
I pegged a tennis ball at 27 steps on this shot.

[Nate Steen .]

looper....not to be critical...your form looks great.  But I see one thing that would probably shorten your draw at least another inch....you wear glasses...and as such you can't tilt your head forward as much or it affects your vision.  You have to keep a straight up head position.  I know, I have to wear glasses...I wear contacts most of the time so that I don't have to worry about tilting my head, but the glasses I do have are very small.

[dragonheart]

[dragonheart]

Form looks good.  This is my form years back with a 46# bow.  Then today with a 60# bow.  Look at my bowgrip. Notice how in the first photo I am so around on the side of the grip.  Lots of arm strength.  In the second, much more stable as the wrist is broken like making a 'stopsign" with your hand and forearm bone going into the bow grip's center of the handle.  

 

   

[Looper]

I feel like I've got a pretty fluid motion. I grew up hunting quail, pheasant, and ducks. I'm a pretty good wingshoot with a shotgun. I think that carries over into my bow shooting.

sorry, but you guys maybe are just splitting hairs with head positions and openness of stance. Looper's anchor looks solid and natural, unless he is trying to develop a more fluid shot for moving targets, I really don't know if it would be worth messing with ingrained form just to shorten the draw up. How one gets to full draw has as much to do with the ability to shooting fluid as the shape of the full draw form. I disagree with a rotational style draw for most hunting situations that I get into, he did not show us his draw, but however he gets there and if he is happy with what he is getting in the field, why change it?

[dragonheart]

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.  We gain perspective with an image.

[Looper]

I start with the bow quartered low, and extend as I draw back, unless the situation dictates otherwise. In most of my hunting situations, I like to have as little movement as possible and there have been times when I started with the bow up in front of me.

I don't really care to shorten my draw up. I guess I could lean my head forward a lot more, but I'd rather just hold it where it feels natural.

Nate, I agree about the glasses. They are a pain, but they are a lot less of a pain to me than contacts are. I have astigmatism in both eyes, so my vision is a little sharper with glasses. Everything is a good deal larger with contacts, though.

[Nate Steen .]

Pavan....Looper's comments and photo elicit response as to how the draw length can be shortened...we responded as such.  We did not question his solid form....

One of the ways to shorten draw length is head position...watch Hill...he always looked as if he was craning his  head forward to get his eye closer to the arrow....much like tilting your head forward to get your eye down and looking down the barrel of a shotgun.  When I see an upright head position,  I know the shotgunner is plagued by high misses. When someone wears glasses it is difficult to lower the head into the same position as Hill did due to vision distortion....you actually would look over the lenses and lose  clarity.  This head tilt is just one of the factors that help shorten the draw.

[Nate Steen .]

Looper...i just recently had catatact surgery in one eye...at 42 yrs young...i have bad astigmatism in the other eye.  To be perfectly honest I didn' t begin to shoot my best Hill form until I ditched the glasses years ago.   It was said that Hill had very good vision.

[Looper]

Nate, did you have a video posted of you shooting somewhere?

[Nate Steen .]

Yes....many pages ago.   I wasn't happy with the quality so I pulled it from youtube.  I have been entertaining the idea of a dvd or maybe a blog....

[Shinken]

Hill had extremely good eyesight.  Not only was he an outstanding archer, but he was also very skilled as a golfer.  It was thought that Hill could have easily been successful as a professional golfer...

...but I'm glad that he chose to focus on being a toxophilite!

Keep the wind in your face!

Shoot straight, Shinken

   

[Shinken]

Hill had extremely good eyesight.  Not only was he an outstanding archer, but he was also very skilled as a golfer.  It was thought that Hill could have easily been successful as a professional golfer...

...but I'm glad that he chose to focus on being a toxophilite!

Keep the wind in your face!

Shoot straight, Shinken