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Author Topic: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30  (Read 26742 times)

Offline Missouri Bowman

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2010, 02:03:00 PM »
Its about time someone said something. Thanks.

Offline Bill Carlsen

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2010, 02:07:00 PM »
Terry: Your whole statement has me in an honest state of "befuddledment". Let me try to explain. The first real "fire in my belly" about bowhunting came about simply by seeing Howard Hills book "Hunting the Hard Way" in a local sporting goods store back in about 1951 or 52. If you read his book you learned that he was very much about getting the most our of his equipment than he could. He was pretty excited about discovering that a fiberglass strip on the back of his bow made it a better shooter.

Ben Pearson and Fred Bear cannot be said to have not been innovators, technicians and inventors...just look at the patents that they owned.

Way back in the 1930's there was an add in Ye Sylvan archery that stated very simply that the way to achieve good shooting required two things....well matched equipment and proper shooting form. I personally have seen the advancement in bow and arrow performance (in trad bows and arrows) improve before my eyes over the years and it all has had to do with people who had an idea, worked on it and brought it to the market place. I doubt very much that you would give up your AD arrow shafts because someone with a technical/scientific gene thought them up, figured out how to produce them and then got them to the market place and eventually into your hands.

For me, personally, I cannot seperate the desire to have the best equipment from the best shooting skills I am capable of. It's sort of like cake without icing.

Again, speaking of the 50's the NFAA monthly publication, ARCHERY, had a column each month called, Archery, the Technical Side. I learned a lot from that all the way from archer's paradox and the importance of correct arrow spine, to  how a radiused shelf and side plate made for better arrow clearance to how to mount broadheads correctly. If you go further back to the 30's and look into Ye Sylvan Archer you will find arcticles that led to the development of the spine tester and the development of the spine charts we are all familiar with. They even did tests where they weighed the physical weight of the string to determine how the weight of the string would affect arrow flight. The amount of math and calculations in these articles make me dizzy but it was those people who had a technical bent and interest in how bows and arrows actually work that have led us to the best equipment we have ever had.

For many who do not completely understand the physics of how to get an arrow from here to there traditional archery can be very frustrating to master. There is more to it than merely having a stick and string.

Where I do agree with you, and I see it when I go to various competitions, is that many, many trad archers have terrible and inconsistent shooting habits and form. With all the technical advances we have I do not understand the reason for what I often see as terrible shooting skills. It makes me wonder how well they know their equipment if they do not take the time to know themselves as shooters. In order to shoot well you must have the two basics I mentioned earlier....matched equipment and proper form. One of the reasons that compound shooters can shoot so well in a relatively short period of time is that compound bows and arrows do not lend themselves very well to poor form or poorly tuned set ups. You either do it right or it doesn't work....period. And the let off feature of the compound allows one to concentrate on form without getting the shakes from holding a heavier trad bow.

So, in some ways I will take the other side. I like to tinker. I like to know how to best get my arrow from here to there. I like to be able to shoot a bare shaft straight at 50 yards. I like knowing what to do to my equipment to get it to do that. I like to know I have that kind of control over my shooting skills to get it to do that. I like to share thoughts and experiences with others in that regard. And in the end, when the animal steps up and presents the shot, my heart still betrays me, my breathing makes all that control at the target seem impossible to regain, my desire to remain undetected at that moment creates doubt and sometimes my knees feel as though they don't belong to me.....and the pounding in my head has, at times, caused me to pass a shot that at the practice butt would have seemed a certainty. Never once in that few moments do I think about my nocking point, or the fallibility of my equipment or my ability to make the shot. If my equipment and shooting was not as good as I could get it to be then I wouldn't even be there....nor, I expect, would you. To me, and to guys like Hill, Bear and Pearson, their success...after you factor out all the human stuff I just described....depended on their confidence in their knowledge of their equipment, how it worked and how it could be used to its best potential in their hands. I cannot wrap my brain around how understanding the technical aspects of how one's bow and arrow works would make a hunting experience less authentic or exciting. And knowing and understanding all that stuff....does it make you less of a woodsman, or hunter, or lover of the sport? It hasn't for me. In fact, the more in tune I am with my equipment the more competent I feel I will be when the time to drop the sting assaults me. Ask a truly competent musician if it is important to understand how his/her instrument works and if it affects their performance and see what they have to say.
The best things in life....aren't things!

Offline Bill Turner

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2010, 02:17:00 PM »
If you don't controll the site, the site will control you. A few will ruin it for everyone else. It has happened elsewhere, guarantee. Thanks for staying on top of this site(TG). That is what makes it top dog in my book. Keep up the good work.

Bill Turner

Offline 4est trekker

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2010, 02:31:00 PM »
Brother, you nailed it.  Absolutely nailed it!     :thumbsup:   I was hoping I wasn't the only one feeling this way.  I've quit frequenting the PowWow as much as of late because I'm bored and put off with the "5 more feet per second" and "if I only had this or that" posts.

 I build my own archery tackle from start to finish, so of course I enjoy learning how to maximize what I'm making.  But crap, it isn't worth a pile of peanuts if I don't know how to use it.

Thanks for starting this thread.  Looking forward to seeing how it plays out.  You administrators do a great job!
"Walk softly...and carry a bent stick."

"And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through him."  Col. 3:17

Offline Ray

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2010, 02:31:00 PM »
Terry don't take this the wrong way but I was wondering if you took your grumpy pill this morning (LOL).
 I must be reading the wrong threads because I havn't read anything about compounds,but then again I only read what interest me.
 You do a great job with this site Terry so if you want to be cranky we will let you.
 Thanks again for my cyberhome, while home - Ray.

Offline Leland

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2010, 02:36:00 PM »
There is nothing wrong with advise and opinions,thats how we learn.Take from them what you want and move on.If it's not going to cause someone bodily injury or cause equipment failure,whats the harm?There's to much "cyber courage" and not enough respect for each other.This site is one of a kind, isn't that why were all here enjoying it.

Leland

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Carlsen:
... Ask a truly competent musician if it is important to understand how his/her instrument works and if it affects their performance and see what they have to say.
i've been in the 'music business' since the mid 60's, as a player, fretted instrument tech and luthier.  for the last four years i've been doing contract for work at one of the leading 'music factory' studios in the usa.  

the real artists place little to no emphasis on their instruments, they can make a cigar box with strings sound like a heavenly harp.  their focus is on the music and they have real talent.  

almost all the musicians i've worked with who dwell and obsess on their gear aren't, and will probably never be as talented as the real artists.  

imo, it's the same with trad bowhunting.

it's really not about a lotta emphasis on the gear.
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline raideranch

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »
Maybe its because of the off season.

Offline Flinttim

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2010, 02:49:00 PM »
Great post Terry. Me  personally, I'm just too damn cheap to get involved in all the "tech" stuff. High tech for me would be Fast Flite. LOL.
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline elkken

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2010, 02:53:00 PM »
Good post Terry ... we all need food for thought. Growth certainly can be a burden. This site has a more respectfull membership than any I have participated in and debate is good as long as it is respectfull and we continue to be mindfull of the Traditional principles that built this great site ...

  :thumbsup:
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good

TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline GMMAT

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2010, 02:58:00 PM »
Questions?

You ain't seen NOTHING, yet!  It's a full SEVEN MONTHS 'til I head to CO!....lol

Good thread, though.  I keep stealin' someone else's line, but....I'm a 2-1/2" shell kinda guy.

Offline Covey

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2010, 02:59:00 PM »
I couldn't agree more! I got in to traditional archery for the simplicity of it. If I can improve my shot and get an arrow to go to my intended spot I'm tickled. This site and the good people here have been my mentor's. I come here daily and enjoy the time I spend here and would love to continue for many more years. To all the people that make this possible "kudo's" and keep up the good work. Thank's Jason

Offline smoke1953

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2010, 03:01:00 PM »
I hope things don't get too critical in the evaluation of technical posts, it's just too difficult to determine when someone might cross the line.  Hopefully the intent of what Terry has said with reminders occasionally will be enough to keep the site strong.

Offline WESTBROOK

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2010, 03:11:00 PM »
Sorry Rob, cant resist. The "leading music factory" studio in the USA has no idea what an artist is, just turn on the radio and listen.

The main stream music business is all about glitz, glamour and looking pretty, not music. Funny thing, main stream hunting has followed a parallel path.

Clapton, BB King, Stevie Ray..and other artist have there beloved instruments and would sooner part with most anything else. Granted they could make any thing sound good but its not the same as "Blacky" or "Lucille"

I'll shutup now

Eric

Offline DesertDude

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2010, 03:12:00 PM »
Well Said Terry, Thank you.....

Mark
DesertDude >>>----->

US Navy (Retired)
1978-1998

Offline Jmgcurve

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2010, 03:18:00 PM »
I agree that we should keep it simple, and I have been guilty of some of the question threads. For that I apologize. I have only recently began checking out TradGang again, and have posted very little until a couple of months ago. Mostly because I want to find and shoot a longbow. I have been looking a long time to no avail. All of this on my part has been off-season fever.

Sorry and I will do better,
Michael
Life is not about surviving the storm, but learning to dance in the rain!
Blessed is the Nation whose God is the LORD,... Psalm 33:12

Offline Teacher_of_the_Arcane

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2010, 03:22:00 PM »
"What say ye?"

Huzzah!!
Lobo Lohr -- Old School Hunter

Offline Iron

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2010, 03:23:00 PM »
I have to agree 110% with what acollins  said, this is exactly how i feel..im not afraid to ask a dumb question  :confused:  , but dont feel i know enough to give to much advice.

 
Quote
 
acollins I am very new to traditional and I am dedicating myself to be the best I can be. I have learned a ton from this site. What I have noticed is that there is a lot of compound shooters coming to traditional. With a compound you can make a really poor shooter shoot pretty good with there equipment. When they switch to traditional and are not shooting well, they believe they can just adjust there equipment and fix it. Which as we know is not the case. I was slow to realize this myself. But am realizing that I really need to work on my form because I am not consistent.

I believe that is why you are getting so many equipment questions. Like I said I am pretty new and don't feel I know enough or earned the right to give my opinion. but I just feel that may be the reason. I do like that you want to keep the site in the right direction. Keep up the good work.
 
I love this site i will contribute as long as im able.  :)
"It is what it is,improvise, adapt, and get it done!"


Hunter's moon 49@28"
1973 Kodiak Hunter 55#@28"
1970 Kodiak Hunter 50#@28"
1970 Super Kodiak 45#@28"
1965 Kodiak magnum 47#@28"

Offline Greg Szalewski

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2010, 03:26:00 PM »
Terry, thanks for taking the lead on this. I am sure it has been quite bothersome to you as it is very difficult to point out exactly what is best for us and what is not. Way too much gray area.

Sixteen  years ago when set the wheels aside and made up my mind I was finally going to do it the hard way and mean the hard way. It would be with a bow I made or nothing. I realized just as important as the bow was how I could improve on my own techniques. This was emphasized in the trad community and was a breath of fresh air from the wheel crowd. That being said I have been watching the gradual change back in that direction amongst the trad folks and don't like it. We all need to look in the mirror, there is more room for improvement there than in all the other areas combined.
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Online SuperK

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Re: Trad Gang is not Popular Mechanics - UPDATE page 30
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2010, 04:05:00 PM »
Well, here's my 2 cents worth....What I think we need is a balance.  Yes, it does seem some folks tend to go a little "overboard" when something new comes along, but I have learned a LOT on this site from the experience and testing other folks have done.  What percentage of us hunt with primitive gear?(self bows, home made squirrel hide strings, knapped stone points, etc.) We have ALL benefited to some degree from other people who were not satisfied with what they had and experimented to make it better. For example, a friend of mine this year asked for my help tuning his recurve bow.  He was ready to go back to the compound because he couldn't get his carbon arrows flying good. WITH THE INFO THAT I OBTAINED FROM THIS SITE, we were able to get his setup flying great.  He was so excited and pleased that he  hunted with his recurve all year.
However, with that being said, nothing; absolutely nothing can and will ever take the place of proper form and woodsmanship.  The latest,greatest, most expensive, equipment in the world ain't gonna make up for a bad "hayhooked" release or a stand in the wrong place!  I went to a 3-d shoot several years ago with a brand new, high dollar recurve that I just KNEW was going to put me in the top 10.  I just KNEW it was!  I ended up shooting with a fellow that had a 60 lb. hickory selfbow.  HE WORE ME OUT!  Why?  He had great form and was consistent.  I was blaming my inconsistent shooting on my gear instead of my form. He was shooting to improve himself on hunting shots.  I was there with the wrong motives.  I learned a lot that day.  
So what am I saying?  I think we NEED a balance.  Yes, we CAN benefit from some of the tech talk
BUT in trad archery we accept and embrace the challenge of our sport and the SKILLS that take the time and effort to acquire to become successful.  If you want to hunt with  EFOC carbon arrows with a single bevel broadhead, go right ahead! But if I choose to hunt with wooden arrows that I made myself with a 4-blade broadhead, thats the way I want to do it.  
So, lets all try to respect each other and each others opion without forgetting WHY we chose to use trad gear.  OK?
They exchanged the truth of GOD for a lie,and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised.Amen Romans 1:25 NIV

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