Bareshaft Tuning/Spine Issues..Giving me a headache!

[cornfedkiller]

Im not sure if this is the section this belongs in, but I wasnt sure where tuning stuff goes.. Please move it to its appropriate place if this isnt it..

Spent 3 hours today trying to bareshaft tune my bow/arrows.  By bareshaft tuning, I mean shooting a bare shaft arrow into a blank target bale to see the angle it is going in..

Ok so my bow is a Samick Sage T/D at 45#.  I only pull it to 27", so I am only pulling 42#, checked on a scale.  

I have a half dozen Gold Tip 3555 (.500 spine) arrows that I am shooting.

First issue - arrow is impacting nock-high.  I have moved my nock point down, down, down and nothing helped, so then I moved it up, up, and up, and still get the same thing.  I switched my fingers on the string since I thought maybe I was getting nock pinch, and it didnt help.  I then switched my limbs around, thinking maybe one limb had a different deflection and my tiller was off, and I still get the same nock-high result.

Next problem - Nock-right.  I would assume this means my spine is too stiff.  So I began adding weight...and more weight...and more.  I had it up to a 145gr tip and 200gr of brass inserts..at the end, it was better than the beginning, but still nock-right.  Arrows are full length (31").  I assume this means my spine is still too stiff, but with 345gr of weight up front, am I really still too stiff??  I dont really want to buy new arrows without knowing thats most likely going to fix my problem.

Should I go to a 1535 (.600) arrow?  The gold tip arrow selection chart tells me I should be shooting a 5575 (.400) at that weight and length - are those charts really THAT far off??

I tried shooting my bare shaft into a group of my fletched arrows and it hits the same spot, just crooked..

Please help me out guys - I was ready to throw my bow in the garbage (not really, but you get what I mean).

[Prairie Drifter]

"are those charts really THAT far off??"

YES.

[Keith Langford]

I would think the 600 spine would be alot closer to what you need for 42 lbs, as far as the nock high, could be a couple things. you could be imparting torque on the string causing this,and no matter where you put your nock,it wont go away. a good indicater to show this is come to full draw while you have some one watch and look for downward flex of the shaft as you are drawing, this usually indicates torque, the other is that the shaft is just way to stiff and is bouncing off the outside of the shelf and showing nock high also. just a couple things to check, I am sure the xperts will be along shortly

[drewsbow]

http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm  

try this , go to bow tuning

[Tomas]

A 200 grain insert would have to be more than 3 inches long. In your effort to soften the spine you are actually making stiffer. I would use a standard insert with a 175 grain tip. But IMO I would use a .600 size arrow.

[lpcjon2]

And take a day off from shooting before you shoot again, you need to relax or your frustration will effect your form and you will get mixed results.

[Rossco7002]

Bare shaft flight can have a lot to do with release over actual spine, believe me I've tied myself in knots over it.

My solution (for what it's worth) - get your bareshafts and fletched arrows grouping together at a reasonable range that spine issues would be evident if there were any. Next, do the same with broadness and field points. If they group together and arrow flight is good - you're good to go.

[cornfedkiller]

Originally posted by Keith Langford:
I would think the 600 spine would be alot closer to what you need for 42 lbs....

But Im curious how much difference there is between a .500 spine with 345gr up front and a .600 spine with like 150 up front.

Is my .500 spine really still THAT stiff?

[lpcjon2]

It could be how your shelf is cut(to or past center), what type of rest and plate you use.

[lunchbucket]

We have almost identical poundage and draw length.My bow tuned perfectly with Easton axis arrows in the 600 spine with just an inch cut off and a 150 grains up front using the standerd aluminum insert.

[JimB]

I would definitely do as drewsbow said and go to the tuning info at bowmaker.net

You should be able to get the 35/55's to tune with app. 200 grs of point weight and a standard insert.I can only give you a ballpark point weight.You will have to figure that part out.

With OL's planing method of tuning,you forget nock angle which can be affected by form issues,and you get the bare shafts and fletched shafts to impact together as far away as you feel safe shooting them,then switch to broadheads.

I think the .600's would work also but you would end up with a much lighter arrow.I know you can tune the .500's with point weight and suspect you should find it at roughly 200 grs up front at that shaft length.

Shoot at a target next time and don't mix tuning methods.Only change one thing at a time.Re-read that one.

[The Whittler]

I agree with the 1535=600 spine would be a better shaft.

[Piratkey]

From Brack's bow tuning tips:shot a bare shaft into a foam target at 25 yards or any other non-directional target will do. I also like to draw a big crosshair to help with alignment. At 25 yards the bare shaft has time to get out of paradox.

[cornfedkiller]

So you guys that are saying that I should be fine with about 200gr up front - are you saying you agree with Tomas, and Im actually stiffening my spine by adding all those inserts?

I want to shoot a 125gr Bullhead for turkeys, so that pretty much limits my tip weight.. But a .600 spine arrow outta do the trick?

[Joeabowhunter]

OL's planing method is the way to go.  When your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows you should be all set.  Prove it all out with broadheads last.

[cornfedkiller]

Originally posted by Joeabowhunter:
OL's planing method is the way to go.  When your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows you should be all set.  Prove it all out with broadheads last.

What if Im not good enough yet to group real well at 20 yards?

I feel decently confident at 10 yards, but so far, I have done the majority of my shooting at there, and not 20.

I can also see my fletched arrows fishtailing in the air when I shoot, unlike the "darts" coming out of other guys' bows..

[Tomas]

My arrow set up with my #40 Herters is a full length .600 MFX Beman Classic, 50 grain insert and a  125 grain point, Total weight 430 grains- plenty for turkeys.

[SS Snuffer]

The 35/55 will work but you will have to leave them almost full length. Forget the angle of the nock and watch the flight of the bare shaft.
This set-up works great.

[Tomas]

"What if I'm not good enough to group at 20 yards?" That's the problem with bare shafting it won't work if you can't keep a group. I've read that you can try it at 15 yards, but I say why not just paper tune.

[Joeabowhunter]

Follow the arrow recommendations given and focus on practicing until you can shoot consistent groups at 15 yards.  There is no substitute for practice and developing proper/consistent shot.  A local club with an instructor would help cut some of the learning curve too.

Good luck, remember you didn't choose traditional archery because it's easy.