Who wants to test drive the Zipstick prototype?

[zipper bowss]

Keep in mind folks that this bow is one of the near final prototypes.I'm sure if you look close you will be able to see where I cut the grip off of it 3 times!  :D  It took some doing to get it the way I wanted.
Bill

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Kirk,  we can probably kill two birds with one stone.  I have been wanting to stop in and chat with you at your shop.  Let's plan for me to shoot her for three days and swing by after work so you can shoot her for three or four and send her on to Rastaman.  Let me know if this will work for you.

Right on Clay.     Look forward to hearing from you.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by zipper bowss:
Keep in mind folks that this bow is one of the near final prototypes.I'm sure if you look close you will be able to see where I cut the grip off of it 3 times!   :D   It took some doing to get it the way I wanted.
Bill

I'm a little confused Bill..... You say you cut the grip off this bow and replaced it 3 times, and yet you are sending it out for a trials?  What is the purpose for this?

[zipper bowss]

When I filed the grip on it I did not like the way if felt so I cut it off and put on another piece of wood and filed it out a total of 3 times.This bow has the grip I wanted now.It will make since when you see the grip. IF you look real close you can see where I cut the heal area off of the grip and added the new pieces of wood. This bow will never be sold so it really does not matter.It is a prototype.

[owlbait]

Gosh Kirk, I'm not a bowyer and even I had this figured out!  :rolleyes:    :p    :D    

[Zradix]

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[Ragnarok Forge]

I picked the bow up at the post office this morning and shot it this afternoon.   First impressions.

Good -

Very smooth draw
Easy to shoot accurately
Very quiet with 582 and 654 grain arrows
Bow is very light in actual weight
No hand shock of any kind


Bad?

I don't like the grip - this is a personal thing since I am a low wrist shooter - no fault of the bow or bowyer

The bow is short for my taste - I would prefer it in a 62 or 64 inch model - again a personal thing.

It felt like it started to stack for me right at 28 inches.  I am tall and have long arms so I am drawing it past the 28 inch standard it was made for.  Being a 58 inch bow, I expected this to happen.  I am not saying it was stacking just yet.  I will keep an eye on this and post more as I shoot it during the week.

These are just first impressions, I will provide more updates as the week passes and I shoot it more.  

Overall I am giving the bow an 85% positive review at this time with some items to be tested during further shooting.  I like the bow and definately think it will be popular with short longbow shooters.

[zipper bowss]

Bad?

I don't like the grip - this is a personal thing since I am a low wrist shooter - no fault of the bow or bowyer

The bow is short for my taste - I would prefer it in a 62 or 64 inch model - again a personal thing.

It felt like it started to stack for me right at 28 inches. I am tall and have long arms so I am drawing it past the 28 inch standard it was made for. Being a 58 inch bow, I expected this to happen. I am not saying it was stacking just yet. I will keep an eye on this and post more as I shoot it during the week.


All easy fixes.
The way this bow is built I can put nearly any grip you want on it.That is why I built it with wood for the grip added after the actual bow glue up.    :D    

The 62" and 64" model will be coming later this year.

As for the "stack". I think you answered that one yourself when you said you prefer longer bows.        My scale says its smooth to 30".I know that means little to the way a shorter bow feels to a guy that prefers a longer bow.For what its worth, I'm with you. If I had a 30" drawlength I would want a 62 or 64" bow also.

I'll be looking forward to the rest of your review. Thanks for taking the time to share your first impressions.I really appreciate it.
Bill

[Ragnarok Forge]

Bill,

You are welcome.

I had the day off so I spent some time shooting and chronographing the bow today.  I have to say my impressions of the bow have improved from the original 85%

I worked with some different arrows sets today and came up with two sets that were tuned perfectly to the bow.  The light set weighed 504 grains.  The heavy arrows weighed 620 grains.

To cover my first comments.  The grip actually grew on me some today.  There is a bit of a hump right where the pad at the base of my thumb rests that I would remove if I was keeping the grip the same. I definately felt like the present grip was comfortable and I shot it fairly well.  The two photos are of the first groups I shot with both the heavy and light arrow groups. Both groups were shot at 20 yards.

     

     

 

I am going to recant the stacking comment in full.  What I was feeling was the difference in how the bows load is distributed across the bows draw curve, versus the mild R/D longbows I normally shoot.  After lots of shots today I can say it was not stacking at my draw as I first thought.  

I shot the bow with both arrow sets and then shot two of my bows with the same arrow set ups through the chronograph today.  The arrows were fired in groups of 6 for each bow.  The arrow velocities in any single group varied by no more than 3 fps between the fastest and slowest arrows for all groups. Each groups velocity was averaged and rounded to the closest fps.  I have two different anchor points I use for different draw lengths.  I used the shorter one and drew the arrows to 28.5 inches for each group.  

Arrows

504 grains & 620 grains

Zipstick proto type - 46 @ 28 - BH 8"

WW Royal 68" - 40lb @ 28 inch - BH 7"

WW Royal 68" - 50 lb @ 28 inch - BH 6.5"

Zipstick 46 lb @ 28" inches

Light Arrows - Avg. Speed = 160 fps
Heavy Arrows - Avg. Speed = 146 fps

Royal 40 lb @ 28 inches  

Light Arrows - Avg. Speed = 151 fps
Heavy Arrows - Avg. Speed = 140 fps

Royal 50 lb @ 28 inches

Light Arrows - Avg. Speed = 163 fps
Heavy Arrows - Avg. Speed = 149 fps
               

The brace height on this bow seems crazy to me. I am wondering if it should be lower.  The string does not have a lot of twists left in it to lower it to the 7 or 7.5 inch brace height I would have expected.   Bill, let me know if this is correct, or if I need to work from a lower brace height.  

I know the bow comparisons are apples to oranges with my bows having a much lower brace height at proper tune, and an additional 10 inches of bow length as well.  I found the numbers interesting. I expected the bow to put out  higher velocity numbers.  Perhaps that is based on flawed expectations.  I know the resident engineer at Zipper Bows will be able to help us out with this one.  

I took the bow to our trad target league at Archery World in Vancouver tonight.  5 different guys shot the bow.  All of them thought the bow was fast ( their impression ).  We all agreed the bow has no felt hand shock.  We all thought  the bow was quiet, as in very quiet.  Overall impressions of the bow were positive.  

Based on todays shooting I am revising my impression of the bow to a 90% positive.  Perhaps Bill will let me shoot a 64 inch prototype with a low wrist grip later this year so I can give it 100%.

My plan is to drive the bow down to Kirk on Wednesday night so he can give her a test drive for a few days and then mail her on to the next shooter within my 1 weeks shooting time.  Bill, feel free to let me know if this does or does not work for you.  I figured it would be good to kill two local birds with one stone so to speak.

I think everyone else on the list of shooters is going to enjoy shooting the bow.

[zipper bowss]

I knew the brace height would bring up some questions. This bow likes a higher brace height. If I remember correctly I was shooting it at around 7 3/4"-8".If you drop the brace height to 7" you would quickly see that it does not like it. I will not get into all the reasons for this here.I'm sure Kirk will have a longer string on hand. Feel free to play with the brace height and see what you like.
I'm a bit surprised by the your chrono. numbers. Even at nearly 11 grains per pound with the light arrows.From what I have seen with my chrono. testing I expected it to be in the near 170ish area.

Good review and once again THANK YOU for taking the time and effort to give me your thoughts on this one!         Its always nice to get input from others on a new design and this one is definitely a completely new animal.
Bill

[Ragnarok Forge]

I figured other folks would weigh in with chrono numbers the shops chrono may read slow.   Lighting and other things can impact the readings.

[Lee Viv]

bill,

i'll wait to try one at baltimore.....looking forward to it.....


lee

[Ragnarok Forge]

I stopped in at Kirks shop at Bigfoot Bows tonight to drop the prototype off for him to give it a good work out.  We had a great evening chatting.  He let me shoot a bunch of his bows.  We got into an indepth discussion of how he  uses the carbon laminations in his bows.  

I shot the prototype thru his chronograph and Kirk double checked my short drawn - draw length.  It measured right at 28 inches.  Kirk has a really neat set up where he has an infared system for the lighting on his chronograph.  You turn the lights down really low to get an accurate reading on each shot.

All six shots with the heavy arrows read 153 fps exactly.  The light arrows I varied every other shot from 167 - 165 - 167 - 165 - 167 - 165.   for an average speed of 166 fps.  The light and heavy arrows were the same ones I shot through the chronograph before.  

Zipstick 46 lb @ 28" inches

Light Arrows - Avg. Speed = 160 fps
Heavy Arrows - Avg. Speed = 146 fps

Light Arrows - Avg. Speed = 166 fps
Heavy Arrows - Avg. Speed = 153 fps

This just goes to show you what shooting in different lighting can do to a chronograph reading.  Kirk also mentioned and I confirmed in shooting that how far you shoot above the base sensors can impact readings as well.  

Kirk has the bow in his shop and will forward it to the next guy on the list before the end of my one week trial period is over.

Kirk, thanks for a great evening.

Bill, thanks for letting us all have a crack at your new prototype. My last set of numbers with the 28 inch draw seems to be right in line with your last post about the speed your were getting.  I suspect Archery Worlds chronograph is reading a bit slow, or I shot the bow higher above the sensors.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well Clay brought it out to the shop tonight. I didn't really play with it too much yet, but I did shoot it a few times. My indoor bag at 10 yards doesn't tell you much, but i can sure feel the foam in those limbs.       This is my first opportunity to try a glass/foam limb. i may have to try that combo myself.

judging by the amount of reflex in these limbs, and the existing preload, i won't even try the lower brace heights. it's obvious she's going to perform better at a higher brace.

I'll get her out doors and give her a good work out tomorrow.....

Question Bill:  What type of finish material are you spraying?  It seems like a good tough finish, if i had to guess i'd say T-Bird or another epoxy base finish. possibly an auto clear coat?

[Hippie Chris]

I'm sure I'll have the chance to shoot this one soon.

[zipper bowss]

The finish is Torgenol. Its an epoxy finish.Tough as nails, but a bit of a pain to learn to use well.It took me 2 months to learn to spray it.    I think it was worth the trouble though. That finish is tough as nails.

Gotta love the feel of foam cores.  :D  Have some fun with her Kirk.Bowyers are just like everyone else. We all love to play around with different bows.

This just shows us all how tricky a chronograph can be.Thanks again for taking the time to shoot her, Lowell.
Bill

[**DONOTDELETE**]

LOL!  Spraying that epoxy base finish is seriously unforgiving. i liked to pull my hair out using auto clear coat until i became one with my spray gun.

Looks like the weatherman was good to his word. i got sunny skies to shoot in today. Alright!      

[Bjorn]

You might want to keep the bow on the west coast and heading south too. No point in zigzagging around-right? Let me know when you are ready to send it to California and I can give you my address.      

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Bjorn:
You might want to keep the bow on the west coast and heading south too. No point in zigzagging around-right? Let me know when you are ready to send it to California and I can give you my address.              

That's not a bad idea. with the cost of shipping it would be better going to California first, then work it east a little hop at a time....

Is that OK with you guys? If so i'll send her your way tomorrow Bjorn.

Ok here's what i did with the bow...

First i took here outside and shot her at 20 to 30 yards. The arrows it liked best were 3555's from 424 - 474 grains. I tried the 500's and some Heritage 150's and they flew pretty decent too. i had to lower the string knock to about an 1/8" above 90 degrees off the shelf to get her shooting where i was looking. This thing really liked a variety of arrow spines. i attribute that to the past center shelf cut out.btw ... It definitely liked 7.78 to 8" brace the best. i saw diminishing returns at 7,5" and 8.5" was quiet, but too high. it started loosing its cast over 8".

My groups weren't a purdy as Clays, so no pictures are forth coming there.    :p  


I took her inside and put it on the tiller tree with a scale and got the numbers for a DFC graph.
I didn't set up the shooting machine with the chronograph and the high speed video camera, because this bow wasn't really sent to me for an official testing. By late May i should have my facility set up to do this in a professional capacity and will offer my services to bowyer's and private owners alike.

here is the DFC graph. She has a nice smooth draw out to about 29". i could feel the gradual increase when shooting it, but there really wasn't a wall. from 29 to 30" it defiantly starts stacking. at 31" that's it... I DIDN'T DRAW IT PAST THAT POINT.... Once you hit 90 degrees on the string angle finger pinch is an issue.

All in all I'd say you have a decent shooting bow here that will do the job out to 29-30". Love the foam.      

 


Here she is at 28"  And 29" of draw.

 

 


Thanks for bringing it by Clay.    

[owlbait]

Anymore reports on this decent shooting bow?  :D