Bare shaft tuning hell

[arrowlauncherdj]

Guys I am having heck bare shafting. I cannot get rid of nock high nosedive. I am shooting 2016's cut to 29.5 with125 gr points out of a 51# at 28 RD longbow. I draw 28". Nock fit is pretty good and no matter where I move the nock up or down I just get varying degrees of nosedive and very weak. I am beginning to think the bow is mismarked for weight. Help please.

[arrowlauncherdj]

Also I did grab some Gt 5575 with 200gr up front cut to 30 1/8" and they did a lot better but still some low bare shaft impact no matter where i moved the nock. After a while of being frustrated I tried 3 under on both shaft sizes and it got a litthe better moving the nock to optimal but then the 2016 showed extremely weak even when I reduce tip weight to 100gr

[Alexander Traditional]

I don't know a whole bunch about this,but it does sound to be weak. You might have better luck with 2117 if you want to use aluminum.

[Looper]

Do you have a two nocks tied on your string, one above and one below? If not, I'd bet your arrow is sliding down the string upon release and bouncing off the shelf.

[JimB]

Also,watch for form issues like a high elbow on your drawing arm or torquing the string.

[JamesKerr]

I agree with Looper, your arrow could be sliding down the string causing a false nock high reading.

[Shan]

JimB, can a high elbow cause a nock low indication while bareshafting?

[JimB]

I'm not sure about nock low but it can cause the arrow to bounce off the edge of the shelf and it will give a "false weak" impact on the target.I also agree about the second nock point.I would want to get that ironed out first.

[AkDan]

the high elbow changes finger pressure on the string.  (same with a low elbow).....  YOu dont need to change elbow position to change finger pressure though if you do raise or lower the elbow you'll increase or decrease pressure on the top or bottom finger by doing so.  IE changing how the bow shoots.   Simple test....try changing the pressure on your upper or lower finger and see what happens.  Just as a warning...stay pretty close to the bail with a bareshaft doing this until you see how it reacts.

Could be bow hand pressure also.

Up and down is tiller/nock point, not spine.  If it was spine you'd be so grossly out that you'd be busting arrows imho!  

I dont run a 2nd point..but have considered it.   If your nock fits correctly though I wouldnt think you'd need it, than again it cant hurt.  

Have you bareshafted this bow before or is this a new setup?

[arrowlauncherdj]

It is new but to be honest, i have had this problem on every bow i have ever owned and never figured it out. I thought it was bc o heel my hand. On the grip but i dont understand how a high elbow if consistent would make me torque the string... And i have a high elbow and have yet to figure out how to get rid of it. But on camera it is pretty consistent every shot. I am lost here and very frustrated

[Rick Richard]

I know it is frustrating and I sympathize with you since I can never get my arrows to fly straight (up and down).  I think as long as the shaft is flying without any left or right then I would find an acceptable nock heigth and then try fletched arrows.  If they fly good without any noticeable up and down, then I would be willing to accept that.

[AkDan]

a high elbow is going to put more pressure on your bottom finger which is going to change how the arrow acts as a hole when shot.  It doesnt change the tiller of the bow....what it does is change the requirements for tiller that YOU need as a shooter.  Its a lot like comparing split finger vs 3 under.   YOu can do themboth with onebow but you may have a problem shooting a bow that is not tillered for its intended purpose.    The tiller requirement is different for both because of the pressure thats applied on the string.

How you grip or heel a bow also effects what kind of tiller you'll need in a bow.   A guy who shoots with a high wrist, vs one with a LOT of heel pressure are going to get different results when it comes to tuning.  Most of us fall in a more medium instead of this amount of extreme.  So we are able to get away with a general tillered bow because it fits the mass's.  it doesnt mean it fits everyone!

If you ride a heavy top finger, or a heavy bottom finger, it could be creating these problems....its a simple test really, try it with your bareshaft, just stay fairly close or you could (likely will) break it....if it doesnt straighten things out.  shoot some with a heavy top finger...than shoot some with a heavy bottom finger.....

Another thing to try is if you're shooting split...try 3 under, or visa versa.  

A nock high is ok to a point...most of us are around the 3/8 to 1/2 but 3/4 isnt out of the question or really out of the norm.  If you're going past this you're got tiller problems....or as mentioned, string pressure, bow hand pressure...or a combination of them.

[arrowlauncherdj]

If iheel the bow hand and do have more pressure on my 3rd finger what tiller do i need? 3 under feels about as foreign to me as shooting left handed bc i cant get the arrow under my eye but it did help rhe nosedive effect some but the bareshaft shows even weaker on 3 under i guess bc of a cleaner release maybe?

[AkDan]

the bowyer I am not....but what I have noticed is I cant tune some bows at all.   Swapped to 3 under and wamo.   I would ASSUME with a lot of lower finger pressure you'll need to increase the tiller.....dont quote me on that, I'd have to go tinker some to get my head wrapped around actual numbers.

Have you tried an even pressure on all 3 fingers?  I have a hard time putting more pressure on my middle finger...so opt out for a even finger pressure and wamo, bullet holes.

as for weak or stiff going to 3 under...its a hole different part of the tuning process....you're trying to get spine and nock point at the same time.  Worry about one at a time.  do one change at a time till you bring things in.   Maybe you are getting a cleaner release....maybe its just a weak shaft all together and you're not seeing it as much with the up and down problem.  

I wouldnt put feathers on till you figure it out..and hearing its not only this bow but others tells me its something you are doing and not the bow/setup....not likely the bow (though it COULD be).

[Looper]

You never told us if you have two nocksets on your string, or just one. You need to make sure your arrow is coming off cleanly, without slipping down. That's the very first step. You won't be able to determine anything else, otherwise.

[Rick Richard]

Are you canting the bow?  If you are then maybe what you are seeing (vertical flight) is really a shaft that is too weak.

[arrowlauncherdj]

O sorry, i have one but i put the arrow above it... Could it be sliding up the string?

[Rick Richard]

Very much so!

[arrowlauncherdj]

I do cant the bow and i was told on another forum not to cant during tuning... So i have yet another thing to try this evening... O and on rhe 3 under attempt, i did not cant at all... Still showed weak but not as nock high

[AkDan]

you're not going to eliminate both.....unless the spine is right, by playing with 3 under or changing finger pressure/bowhand pressure.  Spine is a hole different topic, which is NORMALLY much easier to sort out LOL.