Wood arrow spine problem?

[Hasbro]

I'm trying to tune a one piece LB with wood arrows for shooting certain 3D tournaments.  

The LB is cut just shy of center... 43 @ 28 & 45 at my DL.  The arrows I'm working with are 23/64" tapered POC 65-70#.  30.5" long with 125 grn tips.  I gap & need the length.  I shoot 3 under.

My problem is they are bare shafting weak & not very forgiving.  They group OK if everything is perfect but dang!  I've built out the strike plate a lot IMO... It looks like 2-2.5 arrow widths and they are still shooting a weak.

My question is, is it normal to be 25-30# over spine with woods & still bare shaft weak?  Do I need a heavier spine?

I have a 3 piece, 45# recurve cut to center & it shoots full length ICS 500's W/175 grns like darts... Very forgiving & east to tune.
I also have a 3 piece 45# lb LB that shoots ICS 400's like darts & is also forgiving & easy to tune..
Needless to say, right now, I ain't a fan of wood arrows!

Thanks in advance!

[slowbowjoe]

I know much less than many of the other folks here, but it sounds to me like you're way OVERspined with 65/70's.

Others will be able to explain more about reading the bareshafting,
and we don't know a whole lot about your particular bow, but even at 30.5", with 125 points, seems like you probably wouldn't be needing more than 55/60, if even that.

I'm sure some good advice will appear here shortly.

[Bjorn]

I would say you are way over too..........and bouncing off the riser giving you a false weak. You need some shafts that are right around 45/50#.
The cut of the riser "cut just shy of center" will make up for the extra length you need. Start full length don't build out the sidewall, and cut as you need to for tuning. JMHO

[cedar]

Either 50-54 or 55-59 should work with your setup.

[m midd]

X2 with john

[STEVE R.]

I shoot a longbow with wood. I have to say you are way over spined. I have a center shot foley 50@28 and I draw right at 30. I shoot 60/65 that are 30.5 inches long.For some reason I cannot get a true bare shaft flight.It is sommething in my form. I get good bare shaft with my recurve, but thats another story. Don't be disappointed by negative bareshaft flight. I find if I get good flight with feathers, and switch to broadhead points and still get good flight, then its on.

[Flying Dutchman]

My first longbow was 38 lbs at my drawlegth. It was mild R/D and had a D-shape when strung. It was cut 1/16 before center.

I used the following arrows: normal POC, 15/16, 51 lbs, 30 inches, 125 grains fieldpoint.

They were perfect for that bow. For your set-up somewhere between the 60 and 70 should work fine.


For proper bareshafting your form has to be perfect. If you don't have a proper release, you will get a false reading. I guess this is happening to you. There can be many reasons why bareshafting doesn't give a proper reading.

How is the fit of the nocks on your string i.e.? If they fit too tight, this also may cause a false reading.

Me, I don't like carbon or aluminium arrows. Wood is much more forgivin' and has a soul.... Once you get the hang of it and you found the proper arrows, you will LOVE wood!

If you have any more questions,

shoot!

[Rick Richard]

I agree that you may be way over spined and bouncing off the shelf giving you a false indication.  I would recommend a 45 to 50 with your setup. Give Rod Kelly from Mountain Top Traditional Arrows(406 756 5885)a call and request some test shafts to be sent for your testing. Rod has forgotten more about arrows then most of us will ever remember.

[Hasbro]

Thanks for the replies!

Flying Dutchman... My nocks fit well, using the gentle bump.  I believe my form is acceptable based on bare shafting my other bows.  
I bought these arrows from a reputable arrow shaft seller.... talked to him for a long while.  I think we determine to add 5# of spine for every inch over 28" of arrow length.

The arrows started a 31.5" so 60#'s or 60-65#'s should be close.  They flew weak so I started cutting them down.  
I think I will play with the tip weight today & see what happens.  I will call Mountain Top tomorrow!

Thanks everyone!

[Orion]

The rule of thumb for adding spine weight is about 5# for every inch of ADDITIONAL DRAW LENGTH, not additional arrow length.  Additional draw length increases poundage and flexes the arrow at a different point.  Doesn't always work, but that's the way to bet.  I agree with others, you're spined too heavy now.

Building the strike plate out exacerbates the problem.  At 50-55#, which is about what should work for you, you can also get shafts in 11/32, which will ride a little closer to the center of the bow.

[bigbadjon]

I believe a lot of problems with wood arrow consistency is that they are not closely matched enough or they are not totally straight. Wood arrows give the allusion they are unforgiving because 5 and 6 pound spine groups are not closely matched enough for accurate shooting.

[snag]

Are you wanting to stay with 23/64's? I'd try 11/32 and I would take the build up of the strike plate off and try a couple test arrows in 55/60's and 60/65's. I think you have added too much that is confusing the situation with the strike plate, the wider diameter and slightly too stiff shafts.

[Bill Carlsen]

WAAAAYYYY too stiff. When I was making arrows and had you called me I would have suggested 45-50 spine and nothing more unless you are shooting fast flight type of string. If your bow is a self bow I would go even lighter in spine.

[Flying Dutchman]

This is what I shoot with my hybrid longbow:

It has 45 lbs at 29 inches, which is my drawlenght. I shoot it with a 6 strands SBD string and the bow is a fraction before center cut, with strikeplate.

Sitka Spruce 11/32, cut to 29,5 inches, 53 lbs, 100 grains fieldpoint, three 4" fletches, shielded, helical.

All my shafts are exactly handspined on 53 lbs and they differ only +/- 2 grains in weight per set.

They hit eachother when training at 30 yards.

[AkDan]

its not the arrows fault it aint flying right lol.  Simply put you dont have the right one.  

Consistency is another factor, and depending on where you're getting them can be a problem.   Doesnt mean it is. Its why I ended up buying a spine tester.  Once you find what works stay with that company!!!   you'll find different numbers on the same shafts at times when going from company to company and sometimes within the same company where multiple testers are used....IF they are even used instead leaving them spined from the company they were purchased from.  

I dont build my site windows out too much but have in the past.  My longbow shelves dont leave a lot of room to do it, so I play with spines. I do add a pressure point and have run into problems on some bows changing the thickness of the site windows material.  

Instead of buying different arrows, try playing with different heads and see what it tells you, that'll answer you question if you need to go stiffer/weaker.  (just saw you mentioned that after I re read your post)

It SOUNDS like you are too stiff..but honestly every bow-arrow-shooter combination is different so to say you're off is not a possiblity.  Shoot what you need to get tuned....regardless of what it 'should' be.  

I am shooting a 60lb r/d lonbow, 8 strand d87 string I built and she really likes 77-80lb spined shafts, 75's come out slightly weak.  Drawing 29 (so 63 at my draw).

[lpcjon2]

Try and find 600-700 grain field points...LOL

  As stated look into a lower spine arrow.Dont give up on wood, the correct spine will have you loven wood.

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

Way over,bro...like everybody has said.

[Hasbro]

I appreciate the replies guys!

The bow is one piece laminated... Not a self bow, for those that asked.  I'm shooting 16 strands of Brownell FF.  Flemish that I twist up.  I do have access to a spine tester... & these shafts spine from 67 to 70.

I put 165 grain tips on, from 125, & the reaction was extremely weak.  I attempted to shoot 11/32 woods spined at 55#'s off of my 3 piece LB (45#) last year.  Cut them 30.5" to facilitate my gap.  They bare shafted very weak as well.  
Thats when I started shooting the full length ICS 400's out of it and they bare shaft with the fletched arrows at 25 yds.
I think I will take the strike plate down to a Velcro pad & cut a couple of the arrows that I'm working with down (stiffer). Just to see if they straighten out... If they don't that should mean a false weak.  If I'm getting a false weak, then I'll order a test kit in 11/32's.

I'll get it figured out one way or the other.  Thanks again for the replies!

[Flying Dutchman]

Let us know how it ends. This is very interesting!

[gringol]

Lots of good info here.  I will just add that wood does not always respond well to bareshafting.  Wood's recovery is much slower than carbon and every species is a little different.  Ash for example is very strong, but recovers very slowly and will often show a very weak spine when bareshafted.  My suggestion would be to use everyone's advice here to get a little closer to correct spine, and then fletch your shafts with small feathers, say 3".  You'll be able to see which shafts have the most stable flight pretty quickly.  Good luck.