?Best stat to compare bows PERFormance?

[stujay]

Good info here.  

[owlbait]

Best comparative date for performance....how long does it last on the classifieds!

[Sixby]

Originally posted by LostNation_Larry:
I want a decibel reading in there somehow.  I hate to take a fast bow that is easy for me to shoot but noisy.  Nothing more embarassing than a compound shooter coming into my shop and shooting recurve only to comment on how it is louder than his compound.

I agree and this goes to the question , What is performance? I still contend (gently of course) that performnace is far more than but does include speed. If we guage bow performance by speed alone we could possibly have an unshootable piece of garbage on our hands that stacks terribly and is unacceptable in the shock and awe department.

This is exactly why many people that are trad shooters come against speed every time it is mentioned. They hearken back to the day when bowyers in bunches built radical bows that really stunk for shooting in general. Even Bear went there with the cubs ect that were strictly reflex with no deflex at all. They shot great if you could hold on to them. Those designs eliminate themselves thankfully but they are the hype of the day.

God bless, Steve

[Ragnarok Forge]

Call an engineer or physicist and they can answer this one easily.  Oh, wait a minute the answer is posted above by an one.      

I love the technical aspects of archery.  Yet shoot a 55 lb bow that throws a 584 grain arrow at 16

[atatarpm]

As mentioned before I think that the bows ability to transfer the stored energy in the limbs to the arrow is the best stat. for a particular bow.

[Cari-bow]

Interesting topic.
Hybridbow hunter ( I noticed that the graph that you showed has a very high DE yet it did not reach the 190 ft per sec with 10 grs per lbs. How many of the bow that you tested reached the 190 ft per sec at 10 grs per lbs?
Abe

[Sixby]

Abe, That sir is getting right to the heart of this matter.
Do the bows impart the stored energy to the arrow when tested equally?
Since most here seem to believe that speed is the only important aspect of performance we would have to conclude that given same poundage, Same arrow. Same draw length, that the fastest bow tested is the winner. Its a no politic kind of thing and I can accept that.
However I will never accept that speed alone is the sole critera for assessing a bows performance.
Shootability , quietness, stability ect should enter into the equasion since all of those things are scientificaly measurable.

I will put it this way. If (if) my EagleWing is the fastest bow in the world I would still be saying that it should be quiet and have good stability and little or no vibration or shock.

God bless you all, Steve

[hybridbow hunter]

Hello Abe,
DE doesn't mean all in speed performance of bows: the store energy @ draw length is also really important and the store energy per pound of draw force SE/PdF is a good way to assess it.
Our test protocol is not done to make "nice" number for selling purpose or for advertising and we use bows we purchased and not given by bowyer in order to test the speed. We test bows on shooting machine with accurately weighted ,unfletched, test arrows , @ 28" drawlength with 12 strand modern string in ready to hunt conditions (silencers on, brace hight half way to the lower and higher values recommended by the bowyer) . We think that assessing speed only for 9 gpp doesn't mean anything since we are bow hunters and most of us shoot heavy arrow and lot of 3D shooter will go lower in the 8 gpp or less. So we decided to test the bows in a large range of gpp (8 to 14 or more) to give large and reliable info from "the real world" . This protocol showed us some impressive difference between bows and sometimes huge difference in speed between "official "magazine test and the bow of Average Joe. This way of testing will also show the hunter which bow will perform @ their usual hunting arrow weight or the "sweet spot arrow weight" of their model.
I will not bash any brand here but with some really famous ALL MODEL tested were measured 12 to 15 fps lower than those official magazine tests while other are really close or in the values reported like ACS CX bow which are really FAST....
In our test protocol, no bow until now went over the 190 fps @ 10 gpp. Even all the ACS CX. The graph i showed upper is the one of the A&H ACS 12" riser/64" AMO (special order)

Regarding your hybrid bows, they are along with the fastest if not the fastest on the market of trad bows (built without carbon) reaching 181+ fps for 10 gpp . Which is really fast for conventionally built bows in the way we test the bows. All of them: Peregrine, Wolverine and silverfox. We didn't test for the moment the SLynx and the recurve bows.

       
as an exemple, here is the wolverine test: as you see compared to ACS bow the speed difference is 7-8 fps @ 9 gpp but is reduced to 2 fps @ 12 gpp. And a simple 9 gpp test won't give that interesting info for a hunter willing to use heavy arrows.
If we compare a 58" AMO ACS CX to the wolverine, difference in speed will be much lesser in hunting arrow weight (both very close), but your bow will accept 29,5 " draw length as drawforce curve show it and still in the sweet spot while the other will blow...

[Sixby]

Hybrid:. We think that assessing speed only for 9 gpp doesn't mean anything since we are bow hunters and most of us shoot heavy arrow and lot of 3D shooter will go lower in the 8 gpp or less.

That thinking could well be wrong. A bow that is more effecient when tested against other bows at set parameters will always be more efficient no matter which weight arrows are used. For example I will use the stats you gave on Abes bow. You show it to be 8 fps less than the  ACS at 9 gpp but only 2 fps less at 13 gpp. That is because the heavier arrow is absorbing or using more of the bows energy. It is not because the bow is becoming suddenly more efficient. The truth is that it will never come to the place , no matter how heavy the arrows used where it will actually surpass the ACS. It is obvious that in the two individual bows you tested that the ACS happens to be the most efficient bow at imparting its stored energy.
You only notice the gains because it is actually working against a heavier object as you go up in arrow weight. The ACS cannot impart as much more of its stored energy because it was doing so back at the 9gpp and it does not have as much unused energy to impart.

God bless you , Steve

[gringol]

wow!  this is getting pretty complicated.  I appreciate the thought process, but I wonder how I would actually use a truly quantitative/comparative bow performance test.  For example, a ferrari can go a lot faster than a ford fiesta, but a ford fiesta goes plenty fast to get me to work and costs a lot less.  For the money, the fiesta performs better (mph/$).  I'm just saying...

disclaimer:  I don't drive a ford fiesta.  I'd be embarassed to drive that car...

[hybridbow hunter]

Sixby, whatever the reason, the fact is :using 12 gpp arrow speed difference is going down dramatically compared to 8 or 9 gpp. So for a 3D shooter, this ACS will give a real significant advantage in flatter trajectory for 25+ yards shots while for a hunter shooting 600 gr arrow from a 50# @28" bow there is no really significant difference in using that bow.
That is just what our test shows and nothing more and of course the fastest bow @ 9 gpp will remain the fastest whatever the gpp.

I will give you another interesting example:
2 recurve but different limb and riser design

     

     


As you see difference @ 8 gpp is 3 fps between both but this speed difference is increasing (little) to almost 5 fps with heavier arrow @ 12 gpp so the RER is already faster but works even better with heavy arrow. If you compare now with Cari bow and ACS, at 8 or 9 gpp difference is highly significant but at 12 gpp the RER is getting really close within 1 fps with the cari bow and 3 fps with the ACS while with the BW speed difference remains significant.

[Cari-bow]

Sixby I was hoping to respond sooner.The word performance will not cover all the aspects that are related to purchasing a bow. But like John H and Hybridbow they can help someone decide where they want to start looking. I wish like most bowyers there bows were closer to the ACS in performance.
I also think that we are all looking for creditably from our fellow archers and that is why John H and allot of other bowyers look to others for there testing.
Having people like Hybridbow and Blacky do the testing leaves us out of it.
Is this perfect I'm not sure we will ever know but if archer's  ever found out we where involved I'm sure creditably would suffer.
I thought maybe the 10 grs at 190 may have set  the bar a little high but looking up is probably more interesting then looking down.
Abe

[Sixby]

Abe, I agree that it gives a place to start. However if we go in the direction that Hybrid is advocating at 13 gpp then we will find  exactly what he is saying and unless the bow is truly a dog there will be minimal difference in performance if we look at speed as the only criterion of performance.

I know that as a bowyer that you do not do that and you build very fine bows that are great bows in every aspect. You definately go all the way in building a bow that shoots not only fast but fit and finish is great and shootability is great ect.

When you say that the bar of 10 gpp and 190 is perhaps a bit high. My own bar is 10 fps higher than that unless it is a glass bow. From the reports on your bows and several others I assume that likewise your personal bar is a bit more too.


God bless you all, Steve

[Tron]

I've shot probably 200 different bows through a chronograph both myself and friends shooting them, and through a bow shooting machine built by a friend (read: MYTHBUSTER!).  Essentially, the verdict was that nearly every bow we tested, with an arrow weight 9 grains per pound, drawn to 28 inches, will shoot around 170 fps.  10 grains per pound will drop the speed to 155ish.  

We've tested a few that were blazing fast, the fastest being built by a gentleman who builds them for fun, and admitted that even if he wanted to he could never sell them.  When (not if, when) they break, he just builds himself a new one.  You could never put a warranty on a bow with as much pre-stress as he put in his design.  

As a side note it is actually pretty good fun to invite someone who has "a really fast bow" to come and shoot it through the chrono and watch their face drop in dismay when the numbers start coming up.  Like I said, read: MYTHBUSTER

Cheers-
Nathan

[hybridbow hunter]

Originally posted by Sixby:
...

When you say that the bar of 10 gpp and 190 is perhaps a bit high. My own bar is 10 fps higher than that unless it is a glass bow. ...


God bless you all, Steve

Sixby,
you know that building a bow in order to blow out the chrony numbers is one thing, but what kind of life expectancy will have this kind of bow? What will happen if the archer under adrenaline draw one more inch? what will happen if suddenly an arrow nock is breaking when releasing? what if arrow is less than 8 gpp by mistake etc...

For me speed is one important parameter in performance but reliability, tolerance in reasonable overdraw , low gain in pound  at the back end of draw (that means comfort), low level of noise, no handshock, balance, design of arrow shelf allowing a great clearance for tolerance and for easy tuning and a bow built to last is a lot more.

 if really your bows in ready to hunt conditions are in the 200 fps range for 10 gpp @ 28",  you really build as a standard "the fastest bow  in the world",  letting all other bowyers more than far back.
Is that the one the Marvel Super Hero shoots in the Avengers movie ??        
God Bless

[Sixby]

hYBRID:Is that the one the Marvel Super Hero shoots in the Avengers movie
No.  Performance according to Steve also includes building a bow that does not blow up or break down in time . You have to build a bow that is dependable.
There are ways to increase performance without building an unstable over stressed bow. God is good and has blessed me to be able to do that.

Did I say my bows shoot 200 fps? I said that is my performance bar. As to the fastest bows. Centaur did shoot a 10 gpp arrow under controlled machine testing drawn exactly 28 inches for an average of 205 fps. Several other bows were right at the 200 mark and several more in the 190s including the Sasquatch all glass bow . ACS was 191 and was in 7th place in the testing if I remember correctly. CAribow was not tested but I am sure it would be right there. BTW Abe I am a fan of your work. Outstanding.

I believe I'll just let my bows speak for themselves until they are independantly tested.

Hybrid:For me speed is one important parameter in performance but reliability, tolerance in reasonable overdraw , low gain in pound at the back end of draw (that means comfort), low level of noise, no handshock, balance, design of arrow shelf allowing a great clearance for tolerance and for easy tuning and a bow built to last is a lot more.

Go back and read my posts. That is exactly what I have been saying from the start of this. Speed is not the only factor that we should use in judging performance. I am glad you agree/

God bless you all, STeve

[hybridbow hunter]

Sixby, as i told you, in our bowhunter association (ATO), we test the Average Joe bow and not the WTT special speed bows. 205 fps @ 10 gpp/ 28" is really fantastic...although the only centaur tested by us, a chimera model (not the fastest model in Mr Neaves products), was in ready to hunt set up @ 181 fps for 10 gpp: a great performance by the way.
As many here, i am a "bow maniac" and i thank you and all bowyers for your work and the great journey you give us in the quest of the "perfect bow"      

[Sixby]

Hybrid, Thanks,

Here is what happens. When any bowyer does what no one believes can be done it changes the bar for everyone that wants to credibly compete. Some of those bows at WTT were hotrods, Some of the fastest were not. Most of those guys are still building fast bows that are holding up very well.
I was not involved in WTT but I know some that were and I do know that the tests were uniform and probably the most credible ever run. Those bowyers and their products have set the bar. The tests that other testers have done have not changed the entire industry nearly as much as a plethora of small shop bowyers have that are producing top performance bows by sharing information which has dramaticaly effectd over all bow performance.

Here is the thing. If bowyers find themselves content with producing bows that shoot 170 fps year after year suddenly run into having to compete with bows that shoot almost 30 fps faster or 10 lb lighter bows producing the same speed as their 10 lb heavier draw bow they wake up. They have to take notice and work to produce a better bow. This goes throughth the entire industry and it is good for all of us. Bowyer improves, quality improves,. Archers and archery benefits.
Like I said my bar is 200 fps with my carbon bows./ When a glass hunter that is not a hotrod will do over 190 , and two did that at WTT. Then the bar is raised.

God bless you all, Steve

[SAVIOUR68]

HYBRIDBOW I AM JUST CURIOUS AS WHAT ARE THE TOP 5 BOWS YOU HAVE TESTED AT 10GPI AND IF YOU HAVE A CERTAIN TESTING FORMAT ?
       :confused:

[Nativestranger]

Sorry for reviving an old thread but I find this subject really fascinating.

Hybridbowhunter, thank you for sharing the results of your test. This is exactly the kind of performance data I was looking for. What other bows have you tested? Do you have a webpage where more tests results can be found? If not can you post the results for Caribow Peregrine?

I do find the results very interesting as I have always read that longbows do better with heavy arrows while a recurve can more efficiently shoot light arrows. These results shows just the opposite. What is really surprising is the graph of the ACS CX there is hardly any drop in efficiency or energy going down from 12 gpp to 8 gpp. I suspect with such a bow one can blow through animals with a 9 gpp arrow as easy as with a 12 gpp arrow from another bow.