Weird Shelf wear

[lpcjon2]

I would go up with the brace and check it at 1/4" increments from 6.5 on and adjust the nock as well.

[Ric O'Shay]

When you get bad arrow flight, what are they doing? Up and down, back and forth or corkscrew?

[khardrunner]

Mostly up and down wobble which I would figure would be nocking point.

With heavy points I tend to get some dive bareshafting. With lighter points I don't get that though (I get sidways movement though showing stiff) so I figure my nocking point is ok.

[Ric O'Shay]

Your sideways movement bareshafting could be brace height too. Sounds more like nocking point issues. Ive never placed a lot of importance to bareshafting. Only raises issues that don't naturally exist. Set the bow up to the makers recommendations and shoot your arrows. Watch the ring finger pressure on the string as that could also cause what you are describing.
 
Be sure to only change one thing at a time.

[AkDan]

Raises issues that don't naturally exist?    How so?

[khardrunner]

I think perhaps he is indicating that bareshafting can breed a lack of confidence since it can be very difficult to find an arrow and release that result in a perfectly flying bareshaft. It can possibly lead to over thinking the issue.

[Ric O'Shay]

AkDan -

khardrunner pretty much defined what I meant. I don't dink around with carbon and have a very limited number of aluminum arrows for just that reason. Most all my longbows will shoot wood arrows with spine from 45# all the way up to 65# with no problems. No consternation, aggravation, frustration or over thinking. Too much fun to just go out and shoot.

Danny

[gringol]

I tend to agree with Ric.  I'm not a huge fan of bareshafting.  It is certainly a tool that can be used to find the right shaft for your bow, but it certainly isn't required and can cause unecessary headaches.  If you bareshafted by shooting your bow from a machine it would work perfectly, but since most everyone shoots the bows themself, you've introduced human error in shooting form into your tuning.  This is one of the reasons people get funny results sometimes.  Fletching is used on arrows because it mutes a lot of user error during the shot, stabilizing the arrow.  Bareshafted arrows are caused to fly poorly by both a stiff/weak spine and by imperfect shooting form, and it is often impossible to determine which is which.  Just my opinion, for those of you who like bareshafting and get good results from it, more power to you, your form is undoubtedly better than mine.

[Archie]

You nock the arrow over the nock point?  As I understand it, the reason for nocking  under the nock point is to keep the arrow from kicking off the string upon release.  I think your nock point may be too low, and you're banging off the shelf.  Raise it up, way up, and slowly lower it, shooting bare shafts at each new set.  As soon as you get rid of the nock-high, stop there.

Don't give up on bareshafting.  If you can get an arrow to fly pretty well without feathers, it won't be fighting the feathers and losing speed and power as a result of them pulling it into a straight line.  (If your brakes on your car are pulling to one side, sure, you can put opposing pressure on the steering wheel to keep the car going straight, but you end up sacrificing forward efficiency.)

EDIT:  I just saw that last post above mine.  I'm not trying to argue here; my bareshafting isn't perfect, because my form isn't perfect either.  But the better a bare shaft flies, albeit shot with imperfect form, the fewer uncontrolled variables you have.  The feathers should be the last resort element of arrow flight, not the catch-all, end-all to make up for poor tuning.

[xtrema312]

I have had this same thing.  Took a long time to figure out, but as best I can tell, it is a combination of too stiff and not quite the right nock point height.  I had that same wear and color from the shaft out a few inches ahead of the start of the feathers.  On my bow the rub is happening while the arrow is still on the string.  I put white electrical tape on the shelf edge and could see a streak develop on the arrow to show just how much of the shaft was making contact.  Shoot enough and it will wear off the color on the arrow to show this to some extent.  


I was able to get great broadhead flight most of the time.  Must just be real consistent most of the time I guess, but I would have flair ups of issues.  

Charts and the calculator were saying I needed the arrows I was shooting or close to it with some variation of point weight.  I went a fair amount weaker and stiffer, and thought I was seeing the shaft get too stiff and too weak.  Just could not figure it out.  I believe the issue was too stiff an arrow, and as I got my nock point down in the right zone, the stiff arrow was tracking off the rest getting enough bite to run the back of the arrow out and look good in flight. Add more weight in combination with the tracking would show weaker bare shaft.  Less weight would then finally get to where it was overriding the tracking some and finally get a false weak by running off the riser. It was confusing.  

A shaft bends as it is shot.  I believe it must flex up a little in addition to out to shoot well off the shelf.  I also now think it is best to run the nock point up a little higher and work down with any shaft or major point change.  This is because of the tracking and change to it with changes to dynamic spine.  You have to rule out the tracking.  Now I am trying to keep my arrow flying a little  more nock high for low impact.  Then work out the stiff weak, and finally fine tune the nock height.  

I shoot recurves and RD hybrids.  Had issue with most of them all but BW recurves because they have a nice narrow shelf and cut well past center.  I did notice at times when I kept going weaker with my arrow I would find another sweet spot where it would shoot as well as my standard arrow set-up.  Finally, I just went a lot weaker and kept playing with it until I found the right combination that would bare shaft well, and not rub much if at all.  

I draw about 29.5” and shoot bows about 52-55 at that length. I was mostly shooting about a 3 ¼-30 ½” 5575 with 100 gr insert and points 125-175.   I now am shooting 3555’s at about 30”-30 ¼” with the same insert and point range.  To shoot the 5575 I have to go about 31” or more and shoot 100 insert and 200-250 points.  Nock height is where it should be.  Now when I get a weaker flying bare shaft it is typically also close to level.  This I believe is the tracking taking over as the shaft runs a little too low and level coming off the bow.  I think this is typically due to a release or more than normal hand heal pressure.   I also now run a little more nock high flight than I used to run.  I used to try and get just a 3-4” low and weak bare shaft to fletched impact at 20 yd.  I now run about 6”.  

Somehow, I suspect some of this is due to the HFOC you get with carbons and the fast reaction of a carbon in flex.

[khardrunner]

All good stuff guys. Keep it coming, this is a good discussion!

xtrema - I've shot my 30/50's though with weights up as high as 250 and I do not see good bareshafts with that. They are definitly showing weak. Not only that but at least the broadheads that I tried at that weight flew very erratically. They were straight, but I couldn't hit anything!

[khardrunner]

Archie, I knock above for a number of reasons but mostly because I have seen the high speed footage of arrows sliding down the string on release when there is nothing under there to stop it.

I will try a higher nocking point and see where that gets me too.

Too bad it's raining now and I shot A LOT the last two days. Most of this testing will have to wait until tomorrow most likely.

[Archie]

How about a nock point both above and below the arrow?  I've had to try that on different bows due to my long draw and my tendency to put downward pressure on the arrow at full draw.  That helps keep the arrow in the right place at least until it leaves the string.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by khardrunner:

xtrema - I've shot my 30/50's though with weights up as high as 250 and I do not see good bareshafts with that. They are definitly showing weak. Not only that but at least the broadheads that I tried at that weight flew very erratically. They were straight, but I couldn't hit anything!

I had the same exact thing when I tried the lighter spine a couple years ago.  One issue was my realease and the other was not getting my nock point up.  I have no issues now with this spine now.  I also found completly different flight with 3 under vs. split.  I think 3 under tends to flex the arrow different and keep it off the rest.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Archie:
How about a nock point both above and below the arrow?  I've had to try that on different bows due to my long draw and my tendency to put downward pressure on the arrow at full draw.  That helps keep the arrow in the right place at least until it leaves the string.

I think this is a must with carbon nocks most of the time.  My arrow will slide around too much.  If it slides down it will run on the shelf harder or bounch off.

[khardrunner]

Mine can't slide down as I have a nock point below the nock. It won't slide up since gravity doesn't work that direction and I don't think the point weight is enough to slide it up (though I may try some stuff with that).

I have the nocking point at 3/16ths above 0 already, and I nock ABOVE that. I wonder how much Higher I can go?

I do shoot split by the way.

Again, thanks guys I'm getting a lot of info and I am able to really think this through. I have a hog hunt in the beginning of June and I want to figure this out before then. I just swapped to lefty, and it seems to be going pretty well. I'll post some video of me shooting here so you can see if you can find any issues.

[khardrunner]

two direct links here... one close up and one back. This is prior to me getting better flight with the lower brace height and moving the point up from 1/8 to 3/16ths above center.

 http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0536.mp4

 http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0535.mp4

[khardrunner]

Interestingly here is a pic of my Dad's MOAB using the same shafts with lower point weight (his bow is 55@27) and he draws right at 27". Notice the lovely blue streak. BTW... these fly like magic out of his bow.

Sorry I don't like PB's new image editor so here is the direct link.

 http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/25bcf8ee.jpg

[Archie]

When I started bareshafting the bow I now shoot almost exclusively, I started with the nock at 3/4 of an inch.  I ended up with it around 5/8".  That's just what works (and works well) for me and my release.

I would experiment with two nock points.  Even though you wouldn't think the arrow would kick up at release, the idiosyncracies of your release could somehow inject some upward pressure and bounce it up.

[Ric O'Shay]

Originally posted by khardrunner:

[QB] Interestingly here is a pic of my Dad's MOAB using the same shafts with lower point weight (his bow is 55@27) and he draws right at 27". Notice the lovely blue streak. BTW... these fly like magic out of his bow.


Whoa HO!!!! The problem is solved!!!! It is hereditary......