What to expect for selfbow performance?

[George Tsoukalas]

tippit, I saw you shoot your first selfbow. It was awesome. I missed John's last post. Nevertheless, that sums up  my feelings. Once in awhile a beginner will make a fantastic first bow. But worrying about speed with the first few sure puts the pressure on. Jawge

[BobW]

If the concern for speed is to check things like KE and momentum for meeting performance standards (Dr. Ashby reports), my hat is foo to the individual for seeking out this information.  ethical harvests are a must.

But if it is for the "my bow shoots XXX fps!", then it is time to re-evaluate the reason for choosing traditional archery...

Please, please, please tell me it is the first reason.

[Pat B]

I agree with all the self bows guys. The worst thing I ever did, concerning my self bows, was to shoot one through a chrono. I felt very disappointed!  Since then, I haven't shot a glass bow and am perfectly satisfied with the "performance" of my bows. I don't remember the numbers and don't care!!!
   As Mickey said...if it fits you, shoots where its pointed, is well matched with the arrows, is legal weight etc, it will take the animal you are shooting, but the important part is up to you. If you don't think it will work, it won't.
     Pat

[John Nail]

Well....I chrono everything. I believe (my) selfbows should shoot 100+it's weight. If it doesn't, I give it away.
I've given away several....

[Tajue17]

I have alot of selfbows and they all seem so so in the speed department but My Joe Mattingly's seem pretty quick, and my welshman Yew longbow seems as fast as a straight limb hill bow.  these two designs stand out...

[Eric Krewson]

A lot of it depends on your draw length Doug. If you draw 30" and shoot 40# you are OK for elk. If you draw 25" and shoot 40# you are under bowed for elk. Every inch of draw lenght over 28" increases the bows performance about the same as going up 5# in weight.

[the Ferret]

Bob I would agree with you if people didn't place KE and momentum as the sole criteria for a particular set up, but those numbers mean nothing if the broadhead isn't sharp, the arrow doesn't fly straight, and the hunter can't shoot the bow accurately. All the KE and Momentum in the world won't help you kill a rabbit if you can't hit the rabbit to begin with. There is more to ethical harvests than the amount of KE or momentum your bow/arrow combo puts out.

[BobW]

Originally posted by the Ferret:
 There is more to ethical harvests than the amount of KE or momentum your bow/arrow combo puts out.

Absolutely!!!

[Flatstick]

In my opinion,,,it would not be what "type" of 40lb bow (wood,fiberglass,compound etc..) would be heavy enough to hunt animals such as elk. It would be what "shot angle/placement" should I take on an elk with a 40lb bow. I beleive 40lbs would cover all of the North American big game animals in the right hands with shot placement being considered above all.

[ber643]

FWIW My go-to Bow for practice and hunting is my Adcock ACS (A lot of folks know this.)

I love self/wood bows and have become increasingly enamored of them, and those who make them (some notably in this very thread), over the past few years. (A lot of folks know this.)

I have two FG (modern) Lam bows - I am lucky enough to have NINE wood bows (3 kids') I have made one, finished two others and have one (number 10) in the "boiler maker" now - LOL. My average bow weights are 40# to 50# (but I don't pull 50#). I have some notable bows (a John Sciffres, 3 Dano Gren, etc) and my latest is one by my local instructor, Mike Brooks. Why have I said all this? Just stateing the facts, Mame - LOL - not to brag, but only to say:

I love them all (as I do also my two modern Lams) but I never compare them to my ACS or 21st Century - even though I may be shooting them in the very same practice session, and with other friends. If I do compare, it is only a generic, "Now, you see, that speed and impact is not too shabby either, is it?" or something similar. I do usually note a difference in what I might consider max effective distance - with me shooting - but I always hunt close anyway, I have come to prefer it that way. I have never chronoed any of my wood bows! Besides I only chronoed my two moderns at other folks interest/insistance - and don't remember for the life of me what they read, now - LOL. I do genuinely hope that this season, or perhaps next, I will feel that it is time to try to take my first Whitetail with one of my wood bows, Cane arrows, perhaps even a stone head, etc - when it feels right - to me.

I started this "trip" because "Jawge" is a "home boy" (NH) to me and so, when I first hit the forums, I read  all  of his posts. This automatically intro-ed me to self/wood bows and primitive arrows. I never dreamed I would "have time" to learn to build one - and stated that often. However it snowballed from there and I can honestly say I have loved every faltering step along the way, including this thread. I hope you will too, Doug.

[Sacred mt]

Ed Scott would say "whitetail quick"

[tippit]

I've not made a lot of selfbows, but I've been very lucky in my instructors.  My first osage bow I did at Denton hill.  Every time I moved some wood I'd run to Dean, Berny Swank, Dirt, Adam Keepler, & Gary Davis.  They would all pencil in something different!  It was quite a learning experience.  Now my good friend Jawge is near by if I'm in need.  Thanks to all these great bowyers my learning curve has been shortened...Doc

[Jason Jelinek]

There's nothing wrong with measuring arrow speed with a chrono.  It's a tool used to measure the bow/arrow efficiency (if you measure arrow mass and force draw) that can be used to help you design a better bow if you're interested in that.

I am interested in making the best bow I can.  I make primitive bows and arrows.  I know they won't be quite as efficient as the glass bows I build, but I use the measurements to gauge each project against the ones in the past.  Just because its primitive doesn't mean you have to ignore performance.

If the bow you make doesn't measure up with the efficiency of the bows you made in the past or with other's bows but you like how it looks, feels and shoots enjoy it!  Keep the emotion out of measuring performance/efficiency and use it as a tool.

Jason

[Adam Keiper]

I agree with the above that you shouldn't be worried about the chrono with selfbows.  To a degree, speed comes with a well made bow.  But far more important is consistency, durability, and quietness.  

Still, curiosity gets me and I scoop up a handful of bows from time to time.  I just picked up a used Howard Hill Big 5 and found it remarkable how it seems to shoot exactly as my selfbows, in both cast and point of impact.  Wondering just "how" closely it shot to my selfbows, I did a little speed comparison yesterday with the Hill, a Great Plains longbow, and some of my favorite osage selfbows.  

I strung each, weighed them at my 25" draw length, and shot them twice to settle in the limbs and strings before beginning my test.  During my tests, I used my ordinary hunting draw and release with a leather shooting glove.  All bows have fastflight or 14 std. Dynaflight strings with fur silencers.  No snap draws and no skimpy strings.  (I don't want to know how fast they "can" shoot, but rather how fast they "do" shoot).

I shot 4 different arrows of varying weights 3 times, took their averages, and then interpolated the bows' speeds at 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight to compare apples to apples.  

Turns out the Hill, pound for pound, is at the slower end of my selfbows' speed range, which seem to shoot in the low 150's at my 25" draw with a 10 GPD arrow.  These speeds are pretty typical from what I've measured over the years.  If you have a longer draw, I would suspect you could add another 3-5 fps per inch of draw.

What's this all mean?  A good selfbow will keep right up with traditionally styled glass longbows.  Based on these results, I would expect that if you loaded a 600 grn arrow on a 40# selfbow (15 GPD), you'd be getting speeds around 120-122 fps with a 25" draw, or 129-137 fps at a 28" draw.  Now a 15 GPD arrow is a heavy one indeed, but would be the ticket for taking a light bow after elk.  Don't sweat the chrono.  Have fun!