Stumphooting: check your state regs

[Archie]

A lot of banter about this, but I have no argument against these laws.  I'd much rather that there be a strong stance against poaching than no-holds-barred stumpshooting.  There would be a ton of people out killing critters out of season, and using the "I wuz jus' stumpshootin' " defense.  Law enforcement would have to back way off, because they would have no teeth against that type of argument.  I am a Certified Fraud Examiner, I work for local government, it is my job to engineer and inspect the procedures that govern a lot of public and private activities, and I see first-hand how these laws work, from beginning to end.  

Most folks probably don't realize that between 5-10% of our GDP is lost to fraud every year.  There are a LOT of crooked people out there, and the percentage of them is growing...

[stujay]

Banter? I see it differently. How many laws does it take to straighten out "crooked people"? Not sure if you stack laws up many inches deep...and that seems to be what's taking place... that a crook is going to pay attention to them. So really the ones affected are folks who are law abiding...freedom lost!
A poacher is someone who takes game out of season...not someone with a bow in his/her hand stumpshooting...LE/F&G know how to investigate. I'd imangine that they do get hard evidence in these cases and then lay the out the approprate charge...not assume guilt without such evidence.

[SELFBOW19953]

While we are all taught innocent until proven guilty, if you're in the woods, out of season, with a hunting weapon-gun or bow-you'll have to prove you weren't hunting.  To me the big question is-which is better/easier/cheaper, a hunting license or a lawyer, to prove that you were not hunting but only stump shooting!!!

[The Whittler]

So we (the majority law abiding) have to give up things we like doing because of a few who break the rules/laws.

 Ya that sounds fair just keep giving up our freedom and we can be just like any 3 World country.

[J. Holden]

Hence my "From: Round Lake, Illinoising" on my signature at the bottom...  I can't wait to move someday.

-Jeremy  

[toddster]

Central illinois here.  yes, I have had many conversations with CPO's about this.  Technically it is illegal.  usually out there hunting anyway and no issue.  They personally think it is good to do it, and using the land year round is what it's for and does have tendancy to help them keep track of what is going on out there.  But of course offically they cannt say its okay.  First thing I always try and do in a new area is talk with the CPO's they have a tough job so they know me and we have a repoir.  One that I was good friends with had to give me a ticket once because I was in a tree with a screw in step someone else left.  I shugged and said, "if I was speeding adn you was an officer you would give me a ticket, you have a job to do, when you get off lets go shoot at the range."

[Archie]

Hey, I'm with the rest of you... I want freedom, and these laws frustrate me, too.  But in order to mitigate the damages done by members of society that choose not to control themselves, laws have to be made and enforced.  You want zero control by law enforcement?  Go to other countries where people have nearly exterminated all the game.  I rarely see ANY game when driving through Mexico; in many places there, game is largely non-existent.

The laws, like them or not, are supposed to be good for society as a whole (though often they are not).  If men were to hold to a common standard of right and wrong of their own heart and conscience, we would not need such laws.  Our problem is that these days, "... every man doeth that which is right in his own eyes..." (from the book of Judges, in the Bible), and that ultimately ends in anarchy and a "he who is strongest wins" society.  

So, back to the topic at hand...

I do not argue with these types of decrees, as they help to minimize the undesirable activity by those who would misuse their freedoms.  Sadly, our freedom erodes a little each day.

[arrowlauncherdj]

I look at it a bit different, if all the law abiding folks give up the woods out of season it leaves the rule breakers free range of most of the lands... Game n fish should argue to support using the woods year round by the majority of us so we can report misuse and they can more easily catch the bad guys. But like I said earlier instead they would treat me as a criminal when I am out practicing to make more ethical kills on a deer rather than make an extra patrol here or there. I mean if they see a vehicle on a piece of property, why dont they just wait on the person to walk out and see if they are in possession of an animal out of season? That'd be more just than ticketing someone for shooting a pine cone or because they're there.

[Stump Buster]

Here's my take as an LEO in CA...

Unless I WITNESS you or have a witness who can confirm you were  taking or attempting to take a mammal, fish, bird, reptile, or amphibian I have no case. Yes, sometimes it's frustrating to let badguys walk when you KNOW they were up to something, but the VAST MAJORITY of sportsmen/women are GOOD responsible folks enjoying the resources that belong to us all. I know every agency has an officer who would "articulate" their observations in a manner to score a "Stat", but I'm proud to say that the majority of us out there feel pretty much the same way I do.

To surrender our liberties to "Feel" better is a step closer to a dictatorial society. The righteous many should not be controlled by legistlation because of the actions of an evil minority of wrongdoers.

I don't want this to turn political, but I was asked what I would do if I found an archer stump shooting in the forests and fields we enjoy and are fortunate to share...

I would quietly observe the activity undetected for a while (if possible) to see if there were ANY indications the archer was attempting to take game or fish. If no indication was observed that would lead me to believe nefarious activity was at hand, I would then contact the archer in a friendly manner (Obviously utilizing proven officer safety tactics) and engage them in conversation to see if they gave/admitted any reason to believe they were doing anything but recreating without any risk of harm to the native fauna. I'd confirm their explanation by checking their equipment and once satisfied the archer was just practicing/stumping, I would wish them a fine day with accurate shooting and to return home safe with few lost/broken arrows.

When the story, equipment and my (or any witnesses) observations don't match up or freshly taken game is found, that's when I proceed with other options.

Is it tough putting all these pieces together? ABSOLUTELY, but we are able to do it with enough frequency that law enforcement agencies are a deterrent to those who walk the line, but who are sometimes tempted by opportunity. The probability of getting caught and never knowing "WHERE" we may be is what keeps honest people on the right path. The ones who disregard the rules written by and adopted by "Sportsmen/women" will greedily "TAKE" game/property whether or not more "emotion based" or "Feel Good" legislation is passed.

SO... Is it easier to stump shoot with a hunting license? Absolutely, but it's not mandatory. If you do buy a hunting license (even if you are a non-hunter) your money at least supports habitat managment and the wildlife we all enjoy seeing.

We have enough laws (too many in this state), we just need more witnesses willing to come forward with quality detailed information (seems EVERYONE has a cell phone with a camera in it these days....and they are a HUGE help). We'll take it from there.

If everyone followed the Sportman's Ethical Code, I'd be happy to find another way to make money. Until that time, I am honored to act as a guardian to protect my fellow citizens, our wild places and it's inhabitants. I also consider most sportmen/women some of the most patriotic and down to earth people living in this country today and am happy to call many of those I have crossed paths with....Friends.

All the Best,

Mike

[Stump Buster]

doubletap

[gringol]

Here's irony for you: in FL you can be prosecuted for possessing a weapon on public land if there is not game in season, but you can drive a tractor trailer towing 6k gallons of fuel while texting all day long, seven days a week and no one can do a thing.

I fail to see how possessing a weapon is equal to poaching even if the law sees it that way.  The logic of that just does not compute.

[GreenJeans]

Nice reply Mike. It is tough in a love/hate job. Been there and still doing it.

[Bud B.]

Bow in hand with arrows on Game Lands with no open season in most states is prima facie evidence of hunting, unfortunately.

Testimony at trial would have to rebutt the charges, then a judge would have to decide (or jusry in the extreme).

Just like speed limits, most everyone will comply. Speed limits are for those that ignore the law.

Much of deciding to charge is in the discretion of the officer. Some use discretion. Some don't.

To me it's not worth it nor is it worth losing sleep over. I'll go somewhere else and shoot on private land.

[SELFBOW19953]

Mike and Nathan,

Excellent explanation of how LEO's around the country try to do their jobs.  I worked with Fish & Wildlife LEO's in Delaware for 19 years and knew most of them personally-great bunch of guys.  The job you guys do is a thankless job (you're picking on someone if you ticket them and not doing your job if you don't) and you are to be commended for a tough job well done.  Thank you both for the job you do!!!

[Bjorn]

Stumpbuster thanks for the clarification.

[KentuckyTJ]

Do you have a season for coyote's or is it open all year?

[Stump Buster]

Bjorn,

No worries. I just thougt you may have seen some recent legislation that I was not aware of yet. Sportsmen/women recently dodged a bullet last week with the hound hunting ban but it may come up for another vote again this week. Gun owners are ALWAYS under attack and more anti-gun legislation is is schedlued for vote tomorrow.

An all out ban on stump shooting would not surprise me.

Escaping to Free America looks better and better every day.

Good Shooting and I hope to see you in the field!


Mike


eta: Kentucky, if that question was for me... Coyotes are open year round, just need a hunting license.


Have a Great and Safe 4th all!

[YORNOC]

Just sad that the lawful people lose once again while the unlawful will continue to be that way.
I'll have my license on me and continue to hunt sparrows and stumps.  
Sad. People will continue to poach without any regard whatsoever to this type of law. But honest sportsmen will more and more shy away from the woods that they take care of and respect. Not all, but some will. Thats the sad part.
Innocent till proven guilty.....hmmm.  Doesnt seem to work that way much anymore.

[KentuckyTJ]

My question was for Brian from Illinois who began the thread. Im not sure if they have a open season year round like most all states. If so why not simply go coyote hunting and stump?  Seems to easy of a solution though so I assume they don't have a year long yote season.

[centaur]

TJ, I was curious so I looked up the Illinois regs. Year round 'furbearer' season for coyotes and skunks. I guess I would get a license and be a skunk hunter while roving the woods, bow in hand.