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Author Topic: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop  (Read 379 times)

Offline BassBow

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West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« on: July 08, 2012, 07:07:00 PM »
Hello,

I am relatively new to the Tradgang forum, but I have benefited greatly from your conversations and recently joined when I started making my own bows. Your help and expertise has been very helpful.

I am writing with a question for those folks that live in the West Michigan(Muskegon-Holland)Lakeshore area. Anyone else can chime in as well...

Here is my question. Would you like to see a good old fashioned brick and mortar Traditional Archery Shop open in this area?

If so, what bows, accessories would you like to see? Shooting lanes? Let me know.

I am considering the venture. Right now I am just testing the waters to see of there is some interest.

I value your down to earth, and very real, opinions and knowledge on this matter. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

PS - I hope I am not overstepping my bounds by proposing a business venture on the Tradgang forum. Like I said, I value your knowledge and the sport greatly. I truly love the sport and have the best interest of the sport and you all in mind.
Toelke Classic Whip 48# @ 28"
Big Jim Buffalo 51# @ 29".

Offline owlbait

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 07:18:00 PM »
I would like to see one. ALL the accessories, points, feathers, jigs, shafts, arrows. Bows: Michigan bowyers(Two Tracks, Great Northern, Journeyman, Northern Mist,etc), Hill, Zipper, Stalker, Bear, and a consignment area for used bows. Staves and tools for selfbows. How's that for a start. Maybe some Hunters Image and other Michigan wool products too.
Advice from The Buck:"Only little girls shoot spikers!"

Offline Bladepeek

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 07:22:00 PM »
I would like to see all the trad archery shops the area will support. There sure aren't many.

I assume you know about Black Dog Outfitters on M-57 near US-131.

Ron
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Offline KHALVERSON

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 08:12:00 PM »
yes
im with owlbait  is like to see some michigan made products for sale there also
 it would be nice to have a place that caters to trad archers
i dont have a problem mail ordering most everything i need from trad gang sponsors
but it would be cool to have a place closer than rockford for us lakeshore guys

Offline sticksnstones

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 08:14:00 PM »
Well Michael, just living in Michigan you hit the lottery. We've got Kzoo in the winter, Comptons in the summer, and some great vendor turnout at several other shoots during the summer. Next really big event I can think of is Great Lakes Longbow Invitational next month. You'll see most of the cast of characters there.

Other than BDO I can't think of a great trad shop within an hour. I shoot at a wheelie shop in Allendale 3 nights a week just because the lanes are empty most of the year.

There are some good 3D courses you can shoot on the weekends, but some of the good ones aren't very well publicized. 3 of us guys from Grand Haven were just shooting one today and will probably go back next weekend. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
Thom

Offline riverrat 2

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 08:17:00 PM »
owlbait hit a homer. That would be great. Even maybe a couple few 3-D targets out back to shoot at. Fingers crossed over here.   :pray:
Make certain your exhausted when you reach them Pearly Gates.

Offline riverrat 2

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 08:19:00 PM »
Thommy! don't that sound great!!
Make certain your exhausted when you reach them Pearly Gates.

Offline Bladepeek

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 08:23:00 PM »
I don't think any one shop can stock all we would like to see and I certainly would not mind driving an hour or so if necessary to have an alternative source. Great as our on-line opportunities are, I like to buy as much as possible locally, whether trad bow stuff or gun stuff. If we don't support out local shops, we get Wally World as an alternative and they will tell us what we need.

I wish you all the best and hope it flies for you.
60" Bear Super K LH 40#@28
69" Matt Meacham LH 42@28
66" Swift Wing LH 35@28
54" Java Man Elk Heart LH 43@28
62"/58" RER LXR LH 44/40@28

Offline Ray Lyon

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 09:02:00 PM »
I think it will be tough because as mentioned above, you've got the traditional expo in the winter and Compton's in June and GLLI in August. Most guys can fill in with mail order (here in 1-2 days from Kustom King or 3 Rivers or Lost Nations).  My thought is you would need to have a draw (stock bows from several high profile bowyers and or an indoor range with DART system) to make a run at it.  Certainly wish you the best of luck if you do it.
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Offline ripforce56

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 09:45:00 PM »
As stated Black Dog Outfitters Tom and Ryan do an excellant job, when ever I am in GR visiting LimbLover my son I always stop and purchase something from them! A+++++
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 10:09:00 PM »
As one who owned a sporting goods store in Michigan, let me give you a very large warning.

I was a founder and owner of Baldwin Bait and Tackle, which is mainly a fishing/fly fishing store, but located near the very busy Pere Marquette river.
I sold my interest in the store a few years back and the store is doing well, but that's only because it's right next to a major year round fly fishing destination known around the world.

Your problem of having just a bow shop near the lake shore is several fold. There's population problems, traffic and cash flow concerns.

Unless you're going to add fishing stuff, which can do very well by the lake shore, you're not going to get enough people thru the doors, year round, to make it. You're not near a major expressway that has lots of "non-locals" and you're tucked away from the major population centers in southern Michigan and those who have the most money to spend.

There aren't enough traditional bowhunters, and probably not even enough compound bowhunters in the area to justify the investment.

Ask this, how much business do you have to do a day to keep your doors open and the lights on? $1000 a day? Do you think you can do a grand a day, average, to pay the bills and support yourself? Do you own the building? Will you close during the winter? Do you realize with a start up bow shop that you'll be working when everyone else is scouting, hanging stands and hunting?

I understand your excitement about the idea, but unless you're in an area near tons of people, with money and with tons of traffic, you won't make it against the big box stores, online powerhouses and places like Jays.

Blackdog is on M-57 about 1/2 mile off the 131 interstate which flows north and south, about 20 minutes north of the metro-Grand Rapids area with roughly 1,000,000 people and they also cater to waterfowl hunters, fishermen, compound and rifle hunters.
I'm in there all the time. In fact, I called Tom up this afternoon. Great shop!

I realize Holland is close to Grand Rapids and that 196 is an expressway, but far fewer people are driving in that direction compared to the sportsmen that use US 131. And Holland is more like a bedroom community vs the major expressway people from Metro Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois take when traveling to northern Michigan.

Unless you have people constantly walking thru the doors and dropping cash on big ticket items, you won't make it.

Sorry to throw the cold water, but I speak from experience.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless you're in a killer location near an expressway/highway crossing, with great frontage, and you make sure you have constant people walking thru the doors and cater to fishing too and and close to a fishing destination and you want to work tons and tons of hours for little money the first few years, you'll be hard pressed to make it.

Offline BassBow

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 10:21:00 PM »
Great advice fellas! I am going to process it all! Thanks!
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Big Jim Buffalo 51# @ 29".

Offline Roger Norris

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 07:22:00 AM »
I have always thought a traditional archery shop in Dundee, near Cabelas, would do well.
"Good Lord....well, your new name is Sledge."
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Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 07:25:00 AM »
What Mike (owlbait) said  but that comes with a huge BUT. And the BUT is what MOJOSTICK said.  My dad had an archery shop back in the 50's and 60's. He shut it down in 69.  He could not compete with the big box stores as they were under-selling him. His main business was service and he got sick of servicing bows and arrows from K-mart. Dad had Mr. Archery's name behind him also.  His store was called Bear Archery Shop of Muskegon.  

With that being said, traditional archery, has taken a huge leap forward in the last few years so with a store with stocked shelves ,lanes to shoot in and GOOD service will probably make it.

I know that I would support a traditional archery shop if it was withing 50 miles of the house.  good luck

Offline Mojostick

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 07:51:00 AM »
I agree that a very nice traditional archery shop could do well near Cabela's or Jays. However, I'd still suggest blending it with a nice fly fishing shop, perhaps higher end kayaking/hiking gear, etc.

You still need foot traffic thru the door. It's more likely that a person who comes in to get some fly tying materials would be open to traditional bows, if he's a deer hunter, and vice versa.

There's a reason the small mom and pop sport shops are a dying breed. It's not just difficult to keep the doors open anymore, it's extremely difficult.

I'd also suggest any new store having a nice website set up and running before the doors are open. There is room out there for a very "on top of it" clearing house for used traditional bows, on consignment, when mixed with a moderated chat forum. But then you'd have to be very active on posting new pictures of bows so that people want to check your site all the time to see what's new.

How many used bows do you plan to have when you open? 10? 40? None? What makes you think Bear or a fly rod company wants to become a dealer with an unknown?

Does your wife have a good job to support you bringing in nothing for possibly a few years?

Is your house paid off?

Can you borrow an emergency $50,000 if need be? Are you prepared to make that gamble?

Again, I'm not trying to kill off your dream, but I do want to scare you straight and make you understand that it won't be easy.

Also, I suggest you get a job in a sport shop and learn the ropes on someone elses dime for a few years. After 5 years in another shop, you should have a pretty good sense if you want to bother with it.

The other warning is, understand that you may not like traditional archery as much once it becomes your job. There's a reason so many fly fishermen who love the sport get into guiding, then never want to fish again after they guide for a few years.

Offline Roger Norris

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 08:07:00 AM »
Mojostick has some pretty good thoughts.

I have talked extensively with guys like Tim Cosgrove of Kustom King about the business side of traditional archery. One of the problems is that we don't buy much stuff. Take me for example.....traditional archery is my main outdoor hobby. And unless I buy a new bow, I MIGHT spend $200-$300 per year. And that is stretching it.

I spend more on non archery specific accesories...clothing, boots, treestands, etc. Which leads us right back to why the Big Box sporting goods stores typically crush the niche independant.

Frankly, I think a better model is internet based, with an unlimited potential of whom might look at your inventory.
"Good Lord....well, your new name is Sledge."
Ron LaClair upon seeing the destruction of his new lock on the east gate

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G. Fred Asbell

Offline Mojostick

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 08:34:00 AM »
Well, unless you have other places to have constant cash flow, like fishing or very nice 3D ranges, exactly how do you make money in March, April, May, June and July?

But, you can offer the niche that the bigger stores don't. For example, maybe talk to Family Traditions Treestands. They're Michigan based and top notch, but most places don't carry them because of price. But trad guys like great quality and stuff made in the USA and not China or Mexico, so there's an idea of a super, made in the USA treestand that you can't see in person at most places.

Do you know anything about bamboo fly rods? Custom wooden canoes? Custom flintlock and side hammer muzzleloaders? Again, not necessarily these items, but you may want to think about "what is everyone else doing and what can can I do that's different".

Just remember, a guy in West/Central Michigan can get to a Gander Mountain, a Dicks, Bob's in Hastings, Al & Bob's in GR or Jays all in about 90 minutes or less. What can you offer that they can't?

As for my old store, we were next to a major trout/salmon/steelhead river with a flies only section and in flies in stock in the multiple $10,000's, depending on the season. We offered local fly patterns, in many variations and with strong salmon/steelhead hooks, that you can't really find anywhere else, except for other small local fly shops.

And we were a Sage, St. Croix, Scott, Loomis, Ross Reel and Simms dealer. And we had the stuff "in stock" when guys came in. So we offered items you can't usually get your hands on, in person. More importantly, it was the proximity to the river that was the key.
If we moved the store 5 miles away from the river, I doubt we'd have survived, even with the same products for sale.
Location, location, location is far more than an old joke. Location is everything.

Offline Tim Fishell

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 08:47:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mojostick:
Just remember, a guy in West/Central Michigan can get to a Gander Mountain, a Dicks, Bob's in Hastings, Al & Bob's in GR or Jays all in about 90 minutes or less. What can you offer that they can't?
And just remember come May of 2013 you will have a Cabelas in Grandville which is only 30 minuet drive from the lakeshore.
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 09:01:00 AM »
Yeah, no kidding. That new Cabelas will suck up all the new oxygen and then some.
If anything, a nice trad/higher end fly shop about one mile away from the Cabelas could really work, being a pilot fish off of Cabelas traffic. But then rent would be high and you'd need big money to start up big.

Offline JO_EZ

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Re: West Michigan Traditional Archery Shop
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 09:39:00 AM »
Man, I love the idea of a good traditional archery shop in the area.

I am still shooting the same set of hunting arrows and judos that I bought from Vic's Archery when they were in Grandville. They are a little tattered though, can you be open by August?

May be that is the problem. A guy like me can nurse a set of broadhead arrows for a decade or two. And I like the idea of shooting a sluggish $14 board bow that I made more than a $600 custom bow. One idea for add-on business would be offering bow making supplies and classes.

I have to travel 35 minutes to the state game area just to shoot my bow, so a good 3d range would be worth driving to and paying for, also.

If there was a shop close by with glue on field tips and broadheads, feathers and the fixn's for a guillie suit in stock, I'd be there on the next pay day.
I started shooting a longbow because I thought it would simplify things and it did... now I simply need to get a whole lot closer to hit anything.

Work'n when I have to, fish'n when I can...

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