Super Ghost bareshaft tuning issues (vids up)

[khardrunner]

Got my new to me super ghost 44lbs at 27 inches 62 inch bow. My draw is a true 29.75 inches.

I'm trying to tune either
1) CE Predator 45-60 full length
2) CE Predator 30-50 full length

I've got the point weight close based on stu's calculator, but I can't even get to that point of Adcock's bareshafting process.

  here's the problem ... the bareshafts DIVE hard core right at the target. From what I read according to Adcock that means the Nocking Point is high. I tried everything though from 0 to 3/4 above using 2 nocking points.

What's the deal? I get my ILF bareshafting straight to 20+ yards with no problem!

[Jeff Strubberg]

Don't try and read tehm in the air.  Read the impact point and forget the rest.

[khardrunner]

They impact WAY low no matter what. Many don't even reach the target.

I don't notice any significant difference no matter where my nocking point is set. This shouldn't be possible!

[Orion]

Hmmmm.  You're probably drawing about 50# at your draw length. Is the Super Ghost cut to center or proud of center.  I know the regular Ghost is 1/8-inch proud of center, which would seem to call for a  softer spine.  You should have it covered with the shafts you're trying.  How much weight do you have up front?  With a lot of weight up front, they could be too weak, just too much for the relatively light shafts to handle, causing them to fly erratically.

[khardrunner]

SG's are center cut.

I have 225 up front on the 45-60's and 145 on the 30-50's

With the nocking points set at 1" and 3/4" (bottom and top of nocking points) I get OK flight with feathers. Still dropping 18 inches bareshafts.

Left-Right grouping seems decent bareshafts... it's just up and down that is killing me.

Brace height is set at 7.5 inches right now.

[Orion]

Are you saying your bare shafts are shooting 18 inches lower than your fletched shafts, or that both are shooting that much lower than some other shaft(s) you shot previously?

Regardless, I'm thinking the shafts are on the verge of being too light spine wise, and that the point weight is excessive for the physical and spine weight of the shafts.  The feathers seem to ameliorate the problem by providing some guidance.  Without the feathers, the heavy front ends just seem to drag the arrow down.

Did you try lighter front ends?  Knock off about 100 grains on the 45-60s, and maybe 50-60 on the 30-50s.  I think the 30-50s may be too light for your set up regardless.

Do these same arrows bare shaft in your (same/similar weight) ILF bow?

Your nock point seems quite high, even if you're shooting three under.

This is a conundrum.    

[Tom Anderson]

That's a heck of a lot of weight up front for your draw weight and arrow spine.  Do like Orion said and knock off about 100 grains...at least.

[khardrunner]

Well I'll give it a shot. Heres what currently works in the two bows that I have that shoot well.

Bow 1) ILF recuve frankenstine... 40 lbs @ 28 inches drawn to 29.75 elevated flipper rest. I shoot 30-50's with 145 showing a bit stiff bareshaft. GREAT arrow flight with points from 125-175.

Bow 2) Schulz Trophy Hunter marked 55@27 but probably a bit lighter than that. I also draw this to 29.75 and I shoot the 45-60's with 250gn up front. 225 bareshafts a bit stiff for me but still flys very well.

The only reason I had the nocking point up that high is that I am thinking the shaft may be bouncing off of the shelf showing a false nock high.

Here I go to try the lower weight up front... I'll report back in a few minutes.

[khardrunner]

Orion... I am saying the bareshafts dive when I shoot the Super Ghost and they do not when I use the weights I mentioned for the other bows. They literally hit the deck to the tune of 18 inches EVERY time. I can aim 18 inches high at 20 yards, shooting for the yard, and hit right on if I want to it's that consistent.

[khardrunner]

Alright... I put the nocking point back to where I have it on most bows... 1/8 above since I nock above the nocking point.

Then I put 145 points into the 45-60's.

Results: NO difference at all with the diving. Left to right they are all over the map whether I shoot 145's or 225's.

Keep in mind I am a lefty so everything is reversed LEFT is weak, RIGHT is stiff.

[Tom Anderson]

Are you sure you don't have a large magnet buried in your backyard?

[khardrunner]

No magnets!

Did some more research here and this seems to be a typical issue. Someone needs to figure out how to fix it! SOme people say nock issue, others spine. Some say too weak, others say stiff.

No real answers!

[Looper]

Without seeing a video, it's hard to tell what's going on. That being said, if you shoot split fingered, it might be possible that your index finger is pressing down on the shaft at full draw. If it is, it will bend the shaft into the shelf, and, at the release, it will kick up. The best way to see if that is happening is to have someone video you from over your shoulder. You'll be able to see if the shaft has a downward bend. The cure is to lower your elbow.

[Blaino]

i say your spine is fine since they are shooting good left to right wise. if thats the case then it has to be your nock point. you said that you got pretty good flight with fletched arrows at 3/4" high.  start there and move your nock down 1/8" at a time untill your fletched arrows and bareshafts group together. don't be in a rush!  (thats where i get into trouble)

[Orion]

hardrunner.  Don't know what to tell you.  I'm at a loss.  I've owned and shot a number of GN Ghosts.  All have been very good shooting, forgiving bows, handling a pretty wide range of spines.

If your arrows are going left and right, it suggests a form problem.  Too stiff or too soft and they should be consistent one way or the other.

If you can consistently hit by holding high, then maybe the bow's weight is mismarked. Maybe it's much lower than marked.  Not likely, but possible.  Does the arrow feel slow to you vis-a-vis your other comparable weight bow?  I'm grasping at straws here.

Just for the heck of it, you might check the tiller on your bow.  It's unlikely, but the limbs might be out of tiller.

I'm assuming in your comparisons to the ILF bow, you're shooting the same arrows.

[khardrunner]

I'll get some videos up within about half an hour. Thanks for the help!

The ILF bow is way slower, the super ghost MUCH quicker. In fact, it's faster than the Schulz bow.

The tendency overall after more arrows, no matter what point weight is that they are diving LOW and LEFT.

[HMlongbow]

khardrunner
I would first check that your tiller is still true whether you shoot three fingers under or split.  If three under then you should have the same measurement from the fades of your limbs either a one or three piece bow.  If you shoot split then the top limb should be within a 1/4" longer than bottom limb.  It sounds like your tiller could be off.  If you have bamboo limbs this can happen.  They do lose  a little memory at times.
Thanks

[khardrunner]

Alright I'm still waiting to videos to load but I have an update...

It seems as though the 45-60's fly straight if I focus on pulling middle finger and relaxing my index finger... thanks looper and others!

My guess is that it was a small issue with the other bows but not really noticable because they are longer (64" for the ILF and 69" for the schulz). I can feel just a touch of pinch with the 62" Super ghost. I even have a small blister on the bottom of my ring finger to prove it. Anyway, the bareshafts are better but not great yet. Fletched fly pretty well though if I focus on that.

In the video you will see my elbow isn't up much, it's pretty straight. I would say it's me still getting used to pulling with the LH.

[khardrunner]

BTW I also checked the tiller at the fadeouts and got 7 1/8 bottom and just under 7 3/8 top. I shoot split so that should be good.

[khardrunner]

http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0581.mp4

in this one I was shooting for the top right corner :-). Two bad shots, one down left one up left. All the rest were actually decent. THis is when I was figuring out the finger issue.

 http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0580.mp4

In both of these I am shooting 45-60's with 225 up front full length when shooting the SG. With the ILF I'm shooting 30-50's with 145 up front full length. They are about 100 gn lighter so the speed is close that way.