Will restringing change my poundage ?

[SaltyDawg]

Originally posted by elknutz:
Thanks Rick, I wasn't buying it at first but your explanation certainly makes sense to me.  Your not saying it will make a 4lb difference, only that it could be possible depending on the string and the variables of material and make. THe idea of string tension reducing as the bow is being drawn is a totally new concept to me, but I think I get it.  I'm not much of a scientist, in fact it was only a few years ago I finally believed the earth might not be flat!

Hey Charles.
You're welcome, and thank You,

But Wait !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You mean the world isn't flat?
Uh Oh. I may need to reconduct all of my testing, and throw a curvature into the variables for accuracy.  

[LBR]

If there is a change in draw weight due only to the string material, then it will happen to every bow, because it's not based on the bow or bow design, but rather the string.

I still say something was overlooked.  3/16 at the tip would equate to considerably more in relation to draw length.  The point I made about dacron keeps getting ignored.  If 14 strands of Dynaflight "stretched" (or retracted)that much at just 68/64# of draw, then the the difference with dacron would be huge.

As I noted before, the best I can get from 10-12 strands of Dynaflight '97 is maybe 1/2"--and that's starting with it off the bow and relaxed.  Not really an accurate guide, as when it's been strung up and settled in you won't get nearly that much, but just for the sake of discussion, we'll say you get a half inch at 300#.  A dacron string under that same 300# is going to give you close to three full inches of stretch--we'll call it two, just to be on the safe side.

So, giving the Dynflight '97 considerably more than you would normally get, and giving the dacron a whole lot less than you would normally get, you still have a difference of 300% more stretch with the dacron.  

If I did my math correctly, that means--if Rick's test was accurate--if you put a dacron string on that same bow, then you would loose a minimum of 16 pounds of draw weight with the dacron string vs. the UC string.  Again, that is being VERY conservative--using accurate numbers, it would be more along the lines of 24 pounds or more.

Ain't happening.  Don't take my word for it, contact your favorite bowyer, or BCY, or Brownell.  Or compare for your self--I will when I get home Monday.  I have a digital scale, and if I can't round up a couple of different strings I'll make them just to compare and post actual numbers.

The main reason I'll bother with it is because I've used and reccomended Dynaflight '97 for years, not to mention used it.  I'm very familiar with the material, and will back it up.

[SaltyDawg]

There's one thing you will be missing in your test Chad, and that is how the strings are constructed. Yes construction can make a difference.

I don't use 300# to stretch my strings, and I don't stop at just stretching them. Theres a lot more to it, and their conditioning than a simple stretching.

You can take my word for it, or not. It really doesn't matter, since I know I conducted the tests fairly & accurately.

I also did not knock D97. It's a really good material, but I have found Ultra Cam to be quite a bit better. XS2, and 8190 are also better.

[SaltyDawg]

I forgot to say:

Happy Anniversery !!!!!!!

Saw where you posted about it on another thread.

[eminart]

Ok, but if the string shortens because of less stress on drawing, then you draw it more, resulting in more stress again. I don't see how this is possible.

I don't believe these tests are accurate. I may be wrong, but I think something else was going on in your tests.

[stickum]

So this is where the speed difference between a fastflight flemish twist and dacron flemish twist string comes in on the same bow and same brace height?

[L82HUNT]

Made 2 strings last night both to finish at 50" when all was said and done. 1 was a 8 strand UltraCam padded to 16 to give close to same diameter size in the loop area the other 12 strands of B55(Dacron) with no padding.  Both tappered from tip of loop to main string at 6.5."  The UltraCam string had 12 twist in the hole string the B55 11 to get the same length.

 Stretched both to 150# and prepped both strings the same.  Then allowed both to set all night and today.
  I just took them and put them on my stretcher with the scale on 1 at a time and took the string to 100# of tension.  The UltraCam went from 50" at rest to 50.25" at 100#
  The B55 went from 50" at rest to 51.3" at 100#.
 
  Like I said on the 3 or 4 post it will be heavier with the high performance string.  I never scaled bows with one or the other but a little more then a inch of stretch difference is pretty big even thou this string had been pre stretched already.

[LC]

Been keeping a eye on this thread for sure! I personally have never seen a poundage increase with a HP (high preformance) string but then again I've never checked that. What I will agree with is that it definately increases the preformance of any bow I've used them on! Faster speed,less hand shock,  weaking of spine of what use to be perfect etc.  BIG time! Now I know that several reputable folks will say my increases are not possible but I've taken a long time with personal experments to prove that they do work FOR ME! I personally think after several years of making and using them that the reason there is so much variation in preformance is that the HP string has to be made the EXACT length with minimal twist to maximise the prefromance. Thus most if not all string makers steer clear and dam them! Just my humble opinion your mileage may vary. It took me "several" tries to make the perfect string for the bows I make I can't imagine producing the perfect string for every bow I've never held or shot!

[Ric O'Shay]

I just read this entire thread. My thoughts on the subject?

I think I'll take two aspirins and go to bed.

   

[Orion]

Lots of folks have measured and reported 5-7 fps increase in arrow speed when switching from dacron to fast flite type strings. If Rick's calculations/tests are inaccurate, what is causing this fps increase?  Rick's tests simply explain why it happens. It is a bit counter intuitive, but it makes sense to me.  

[LBR]

He's not comparing dacron to FF.  He's comparing two different FF type materials--Dynaflight '97 and Ultracam.

The test equipment consists of a homemade "hooter shooter", a cottom rope rather than a crank, and a hand-held, spring-loaded "field and stream" scale.  A great effort, but not exactly equipment that can be calibrated for consistency.

The 4# difference in draw weight from just changing strings is what I'm questioning.  The claim is a 14 strand Dynaflight '97 string has so much stretch that the bow looses 4# of draw weight (at full draw) vs. a 9 strand UC string.  Doesn't happen.  If it did, you would loose over over 20# on the same bow with a dacron string.  That point is consistently avoided.  There was obviously something overlooked in the test.  

I wasn't there, so I don't know what it was, but I know this:  4# of draw weight equates to over an inch of draw length, and 14 strands of Dynaflight '97 won't stretch near an inch under 300# of tension--certainly not 60-something pounds.  It's just that simple.

Chad

[ChuckC]

I too am confused.

If there is less string tension when at full draw than at rest, would it make sense that there is also less stretch ?

If string A stretches 3" at rest, and string B stretches .5" at rest, both result in different brace heights, which I will promptly correct to get it back to what I desire.

Would simply increasing the brace height also then add horsepower, no matter the string used ?

Would that same increase in brace height also then result in a shorter power stroke ?

I think I am gonna go back to not worrying about it and just shoot arrows.   It doesn't give me headaches.

ChuckC

[SaltyDawg]

Oh dear lord.

Why did I have to look at this before I went back to bed?    , I knew better than to share such things. They really do fly in the face of the common concepts/beliefs, but I was trying to help. Other than that, NO, I missed nothing.      

Four things you can take to the bank:
1 - the in line stress on the string does decrease as the bow is drawn.
2 - Materials with elasticity will contract/shrink as that stress is relieved.
3 - Materials with different elasticity properties will contract at different speeds.
4 - Materials with the faster contraction will shorten quicker, and bend the limbs more, even though the draw length has not changed.

I'm not as simple minded as you seem to think I am, and consequently was not at all bothered, or insulted by the disagreement until you started making innuendos in that regard. That really did sting a little, and I thought you a better man than that.

All any of this arguing is doing is making us both look childish , and with that said, I'll say one more thing, and then I'm out of it.

Chad Weaver, and Championship Custom Bow Strings produce a fine product.  I've never once said different, and if you care to ask around you'll find I have made that same comment about you as well as some other string builders on countless occasions.

Rick

[Thumper Dunker]

It all makes sence but why worry get the string tune the bow and go hunt somthing.

[Killdeer]

Oops. A rare double post!  

[Killdeer]

Thumper, I'm with you.      

[4runr]

And here I thought Traditional Archery was simple                              

[LBR]

Well, it appears it's getting personal so I'm done.  If anyone wants more input from me on the subject, just pm or call or e-mail.

Chad

[TxAg]

This an interesting thread with lots of good discussion. I appreciate all the efforts to keep us in the know. Until recently, i never realized just how important a good string was.

[Caughtandhobble]

Originally posted by Caughtandhobble:
Yes there is a difference is strings...

I do shoot Rick's strings and I had to increase my arrow spine when I started using his strings. I was shooting FF before I started using Rick's strings and the difference was astonishing.

PS... FYI, I do not know Rick, we've never met but he makes a fine string.

I would like to add to my original post...

I just wanted the "gang" to know that Rick and I are not neighbors and that I was not simply giving him a plug in my original post. I truly believe in his strings!!!

Rick has given me very sound advise and helped me with many technical problems that I have stumbled across other than strings in the past year via email.

I can and will stand behind the statement that I made about his strings out performing any string that I've ever shoot by more than a little bit. I have not shot every string makers strings out there and never will. I need not look for a better string. Thanks Rick...