Miller longbow - all wood vs glassed?

[swampthing]

Like feeling the fine, smooth, sure function of a swiss watch, it just goes off. No tick and no back-tock.  

[Rossco7002]

Interesting Nate.what weight would you recommend for moose in both glassed or all bamboo? I don't mind a heavy bow but love shooting all the time so don't want one that'll we're out fast at the range.

[swampthing]

Depends on your draw length. if you draw 26" I would opt for 65#s    as a good all around weight, you aren't gonna hunt moose every year.

[swampthing]

Besides, glass only gives you about 4fps. Shoot as much as you can pull without "straining." Don't even look at his scapula, shoulder knuckle, head, or any other hard spot. I have taken a 375# sow hog with a 50# Wesley special drawn to 26.5" I hit it in the soft spot.

[Rossco7002]

I was wondering when you were gonna wade in with pics of that bow Jesse! Love it. Your bow was one of the things that got me thinking about a miller all natural.

How does it measure up performance wise against a standard Hill style - glassed but without the cc/cv boo?

[swampthing]

I have seen 705g efoc carbons from 55#'s drawn to 28" not penetrate a 300# shielded hog.
 I think Hill's way is a better way, have a 84#'er for hunting all big game and a 65#'er  for roving and smaller deer game.

[swampthing]

These are the tips of a 65# wood bow. A glass bow are even skinnier.
 

[swampthing]

The Hawk shoots just as fast through the chrono as the Old Tom, the Expedition is 4-5 fps faster than that.
What that chrono won't show you is the increase in stability the far stiffer limbs provide. Stiffness to mass my friend. With CC/CV lams you do not need as much bamboo in there to reach the bow weight. More stiff for less mass= more speed.
 Because they are essential cupped like a tape measurer, they track straighter when shot. All these years we have been shooting nock- offs. Hill shot cc/cv for a reason.

[Rossco7002]

My thing is that lighter weight allows me to shoot more and be more accurate. My draw length sucks unfortunately but going up to 65lbs would be a 11 pound increase for me. I also hold at anchor before release (very un-Hill like, I know). So would worry about throwing myself way outta wack.

I'm not a weak guy (ex-army and hostage rescue) but that'd be a big step......

[swampthing]

Well, you just answered your own question.
    Apply some "SAS" tactics to this situation.    :cool:

[Rossco7002]

Interesting reference...

Unfortunately moose tend to be much more aware of their surroundings than the average human....lol

Seriously, draw weight advice from those with experience of these bows is greatly appreciated. Do you really feel as high as 65 is optimal?

[swampthing]

Flash bang, Swing draw, same idea.
With my 26"  draw, yes. If you are true 28" draw, always, no short shucking when stressed then you will get by with 55# all day, but, short draw stress shot at a funny angle with a 55# only pulled to 25-26" ?????   oh boy, on a moose???  I think when you see a moose with a 65#'er in hand, you'll be wishing you had 80#. You will not even feel that weight when you draw up on a 1000# Bull with an antler spread that you could lay down IN! just don't shoot it every day, it is no different then lifting heavy weights. Less is more.    

[Overspined]

As far as  arrow velocity, I think a backset Hill with glass is a bit faster than 4 fps than the no glass Millers. I did some shooting 2 weeks ago, and a 68" 40# Hill was faster than my 66" 45# Miller split bamboo.  If I remember it was 5 or 10 fps faster with the same arrow.  I don't remember exactly but 10 fps seems about right.  If you were interested on arrow velocities, that's starting to get pretty significant.

I've never tested it, but even the cv/cx limbs will likely only add a little.

Nate has a good point that you may consider what you like to hunt with and the draw weight for moose because of the size of the animal.  I would add the distance  at which you intend to shoot.  11# increase is a lot to consider. I couldn't do it.  I don't necessarily agree that you need so much draw weight for moose but that's for you to decide.  Guys use self bows pretty successfully too. And if you go glass, why SF?

[deathwind]

Rossco, If I was you, I think that I would stay with the weight you are comfortable with, if for no other reason that you will shoot and enjoy it more. If you decide to go on a moose hunt, I would just get another bow for that particular hunt, whether that was a Miller or some other bow. I have shot a moose but with a recurve and a few years ago I went on a cape buffalo hunt and had to move up to an 80# recurve. It took me a solid year to build up to that bow and when I got home, I sold it immediately. I could shoot the bow but just didn't enjoy shooting it. I'm in line for one of Dave Miller's Hawks and can't wait to get it. Those pictures of Swampthing's bow finally pushed me over the edge. Good luck with what ever you decide.

[Nate Steen .]

All things being exactly equal the glass bow will shoot the same arrow quicker....

There is a reason why hill switched to glass

[Rossco7002]

..it's a tricky one. For me there is a lot of nostalgia tied up in a bow and part of me wants to have THE ONE at my side on every hunt for the next 20 years (at least) so that it becomes part of the memories. I'm also a big believer in shooting one bow alone providing some real consistency benefits.

I feel like my 54@26 Hill Cheeah would do the job on a moose, particularly if I was taking advantage of some of the modern arrow set ups out there so I'm looking for insight into where I need to go with an all bamboo Hill style to get similar results.

[Overspined]

Yeah, agreed Nate, for performance glass is the way to go. I hunt deer and elk. I'll shoot a deer with the Miller without question, but it's more draw wt and glass for elk.

I would guess 65# to get the same performance, and you still may only be close. I never tested heavy arrows, and Nate mentioned they may suffer more with no glass...I don't know.

[Ben Maher]

as for the heavy arrow ... my Miller Ol' Tom gets quite weighed down with heavy arrows ... and the flight is as Mr Schulz would say  "loggy" ...
It much prefers 9gns ... anything much over 10 and they drop way to quick IMHO

[swampthing]

Bill you are gonna be pleased, the cc/cv lams in the hawk are a bit faster than the regular s.bamboo.
Again, I would take into consideration the shooters draw length. A 26" draw vs. a 28" draw there is going to be a significant difference. No matter how short the riser, how light the tips are, or how fast you can pull through release. A 26" vs a 28" power stroke difference can only be made up with by Bow Weight. Hill new that in the day, and I don't ever recall seeing him use an upright target stance. 85# standing like a store mannequin will ruin your neck and possibly your elbows. 85# shot in the Hill style will just put a smile on your face.
 A lot of indians, Ishi included, shot 24-26" draws. Theirs was a different style than the "Traditional Mediterranean."

[David Mitchell]

:rolleyes:  It wouldn't put a smile on my face.    Maybe a big strained look!  No way in hades this ol' boy could shoot 85#.  the thought even makes me ache all over.  Kudos to you guys who can.