i want to hit 'em like HH

[bigbadjon]

Have you ever heard Byron Ferguson say "I've met lots of instinctive archers but I've never met a good one?" I subscribe to that school of thought. I believe gap shooting to be the most accurate method of aiming that translates well to hunting.

[swampthing]

You mearly have the steps broken down and put together a little off.
      When you swing that bow up that is your pre aim, or gap, or set point, or whatever you want to call it. You swing it up to the proper elevation, for the shot, as you draw about 2/3's the way, by the time your "on target" you should have it drawn about 2/3's, then just keep it there and finish the draw. You see that is when you are setting your aim. When you hit anchor and any of that changes.....  guess what. Have no blame, solidify your aim.
   Don't think so?? Re-read what you said:
  "I draw to anchor, then settle in, and then shoot, my hits are more consistent.  Just get "settled in" at 2/3's full draw, then touch anchor point and, "send it."

[cahaba]

Originally posted by bigbadjon:
Have you ever heard Byron Ferguson say "I've met lots of instinctive archers but I've never met a good one?" I subscribe to that school of thought. I believe gap shooting to be the most accurate method of aiming that translates well to hunting.

I believe Rick Welch is an instinctive archer. He's pretty good.   :p

[sledge]

thanks, all.

special thanks to those who addressed how i might learn/progress in the hill/schulz method.

useful stuff.  onward!

joe

[maineac]

I think all Instinctive archers actually use split vision without doing so consciously.  Most people start by using the tip of the arrow as a reference.  Over time instinctive archers ignore the tip of the arrow, but it is still in their vision even if they are not focusing on it.  Their brain still uses it as a point of reference for calculating bow hand position.  Most of us shoot enough that we don't think we are looking at the point, though our brain registers its location.  

I find my "snap" shooting is most consistant when I follow swampthings description.  Somedays I find it more consistant than my usual anchor pause, release.  I think that is due to the long focus as I do a slow draw and pull through my anchor point.

[bigbadjon]

Byron Ferguson said it, I'm just quoting. I also believe Rick Welch does indeed shoot gap himself. I know he is conscious of his arrow point. Developing real precision isn't possible without referencing the arrow, instinctive archery will only be practical in accuracy at best.

[Brazos]

My thoughts are the same as Maineac.

[Kamm1004]

Maineac hit it right on the head, goodjob. also bigbadjon is probably correct. I learned the rick welch way. I'm still new to trad gear, but the more I learn, the more i realize I AM shooting instictevly, and at the same time I AM aware of my arrow point in reference to the target. I can't help but notice it and my brain subconsciencely uses it whether I like it or not. I believe most people are like this and the more you practic the more it becomes second nature and therefore instinctive. IDK, just my two cents.....

[Badwithabow]

Last season i was i as shooting a short heavy r/d bow and really practicing the quick release, I got pretty good at about 15 yards but when i backed up i had a BAD tendency to hold it. So i got a dozen cheap arras and backed up to about 50 yards and let em go. Guess what, same draw, same anchor it took me about 2 dozen for my brain to comprehend that it was ok to make that calculation. I mean after all thats all we're doin is calculating where to hold. I believe it just freaked my brain out to hold 2 ft over the target. Again I'm no expert but just thought i'd throw out my experience, back up and shoot... and shoot and shoot lol.. enjoy the ride my brother

[sledge]

that's me, too, badwithabow.

15 yards and in, i can smoothly draw and aim like swampthing said, and let her go when i hit anchor.

and hit well.

something happens at 20, though, and i have a really hard time not holding.

no shot is more satisfying to me than a 30 yarder hitting my 3" aiming spot with a smooth, pull-through anchor release.

as a bonus, that kind of shot seems to always produce perfect, and a little faster, arrow flight.

joe

[Cory Mattson]

the difficulty has been created by trying to make 'gap shooting' "look" like instinctive shooting. "split-vision" is nothing more than a drama confusion description designed to blend gap & instinctive. I shoot regularly with the very best gap shooters and instinctive shooters alive today. I would recommend picking the style which you are more accurate in hunting situations. Do not assume the more structured gap method will hold you back because in many hunting situations you have plenty of time and control (blinds, stands, acorns, alfalfa) My choice is instinctive (40 years shooting year round)and I do not see the arrow at all. Instinctive shooting is much more fluid and quicker - although shooting too quickly is a bad habit  in my opinion.

Most of us shoot hay bales only, recommend asbells first book for form - Ricky welch when you want to develop accuracy to your maximum potential.

good luck <><
<---------------<<<<<<<<

[Rossco7002]

Anybody got any links for some good video footage of this style of shooting?

[khardrunner]

Somewhere online there is a watchable verson of Schulz's video. Personally, I feel like I cheat if I use that only and not buy the video so I picked up the DVD version as well.

I'll see if I can find the online version though.

[khardrunner]

http://archeryduns.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/14895607-hit-em-like-howard-hill-parts-1-4


here it is

[cahaba]

Split vision is not gap shooting. If you listen to Mr. Schultz he speaks of Mr. Hill shooting at an elk at like 186 paces and he missed the first shot shooting over the elks back. He also missed the second shot shooting under it's belly. He hit and killed the elk on his third shot. This is split vision aiming. Split vision is being aware of where your arrow tip, nuckle,bow is when you make a shot so if you miss you can adjust your bows elevation without knowing distance or preconceived gaps. Your brain calculates and adjust the aiming instinctivly. Tis style of aiming becomes second nature the more the archer practices. This is one reason Mr. Schultz was trying to teach how to get a second or third arrow on the string quickly in his video Hittin them like Howard Hill. (the archer must know the yardage to shoot true gap style)  I do shoot targets farther than 20 yards and I use split vision. Split vision comes into play more on second and or third shots. Mr. Hill explained this in his book Hunting the Hard Way. Gap shooting would not work for me in hunting situations due to having to estimate yardages with accuracy and know fixed gaps. I'm not that accurate estimating yardage in the woods with varying terrain, brush,trees,etc. At 20 yards (my effective hunting range) instinctive works and works well. It may be defined better by calling it instinctive aiming; i.e. split vision.. So I guess I do have a need for split vision which most archers including myself calls instinctive shooting.

[Archie]

What Cahaba is describing is about how I shoot.  I've never bothered with doing a detailed analysis of my gaps at certain distances, but I do use the point of my arrow at full draw, and its relationship to the target at unknown distances.  My accuracy and consistency are not what I would like them to be, however; there are some mechanics and focus aspects that I need to improve.  The HH method of "split-vision" shooting has made archery more enjoyable for me since I adopted it, though.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by sledge:
thank y'all for the thoughtful help.

i didn't make myself entirely clear, though, i reckon.

it is my determined INTENTION to learn to shoot like that.

release at the instant i hit full draw. and hit.  some can, and do.

i am looking for advice on how to get THERE.

Hopefully the following doesn't offend anyone.

I've been shooting competitively for just shy of 30 years. I couldn't begin to guess how many hundreds of shoots I've been to in my life. But I could probably count on one hand the number of snap shooters I've personally seen who I'd put money on to reliably hit a basketball at 15 yards.

[jonsimoneau]

I'm with Jason on this one. Ever seen bowhunting October whitetails where Barry Wensel can shoot running deer?  I always dreamed of being able to shoot that way. But I simply cannot. Very few can. I took shooting lessons from Rick Welch and for me in nearly every hunting situation it works just fine.

[sledge]

earlier in the thread, someone quoted HH saying that a man needed to decide right off whether he wanted to hunt or shoot targets.

given that, i reckon your experience is not too surprising, nor revealing.

joe

[LBR]

But I could probably count on one hand the number of snap shooters I've personally seen who I'd put money on to reliably hit a basketball at 15 yards.  

I've only been going to tournaments (I won't say all that time I was competitive) for 20 years or so, from TX to PA, hunting from NM and CO to Northern Ontario...I haven't seen them either.  I've seen some that, when they were on, they were on...but they often weren't on.

To answer your question...are you willing to dedicate several hours a day, 7 days a week, for many years...realizing that even then you may never reach that goal?  Or you could become much more accurate much sooner with a more conventional method.

Some people just have a gift.  Not everyone who plays basketball will be Michael Jordan, no matter how hard they try.  Not everyone who plays football will be Peyton Manning, no matter how dedicated they are.  And not everyone who shoots a longbow can attain the level of accuracy that Howard Hill had, even if they dedicate their lives to it.

You can get pretty dang accurate though, with enough practice and the proper coaching, as long as you are dedicated to it.