Let's Tune Some Carbons!

[John Scifres]

So I finally capitulated and bought some carbon arrows in the St. Jude Auction.  You know..."For the Children".  I really like them.  So...

I have been assimilated into your Borglike, non-natural arrow world.  So sue me.

I got some Gold Tip Blems from Big Jim today and am gonna take you all along on my virgin voyage into tuning carbons.  I am an absolute newb so this is not a tunealong as much as it is an opportunity for you all to laugh at me.

After exhaustive research into bare shaft tuning here on TG, I am ready.  I already learned the value of footing with aluminum arrows shaft material when I busted one of my St. Jude carbons, so that will be part of this.  In fact, it is the first part of it.

I am tuning these shafts to 2 bows, one is a 47# at 27" glass curve that I got in the TradGang Bowyers Bench Swap from Jess Stuart.  The other is a 45# at 27" Ben Pearson recurve that my brother has.  

The shafts are 1535s (.600 deflexion I guess???) cause that's all Jim had left.  I think these should work out based on the arrow charts I looked at.  I am guessing we will be cutting them down to about 28".  The tips are 250 grain field points and I am using the aluminum inserts that came with the shafts.  In the end, I will be using 100 grain glue on adapters and Ribtek 190s for hunting.

[John Scifres]

So let's start with the footing.  Again, total newb so use this footalong at your own risk.  First thing was to dig through all the old arrows I had from years of scavenging at shoots and finding stuff in the woods.  Even a few of these are left from my compound days 15 years ago.

   

I found several aluminum sizes including 2213, 2219s and 2117s.  After some trial and error, I found the 2117s were the best fit.  So here we go.

   

First thing was to bevel the end before cutting.

   

Then cut the tip end to 3/4" which is the length of the inserted part of the insert.

   

Then bevel the end using needlenose pliers.

   

Here is the before pic.

   

[Rob W.]

Only thing I would change would be maybe going down to 200gr. upfront but you should be in the park.

Your wood arrows will never forgive you!

Rob

[John Scifres]

I'm also going to put a collar around the nock end that is 1/4".

   

I'm using regular epoxy cause that's what I got.

   

The dry fit.
   

And the 2 footed bareshafts.  I did not glue the nock collars yet since I will be cutting the ends as I tune.  I epoxied the tip inserts at the same time I glues the footings on.

 

I'll give them 24 hours to set up and in the meantime, you all can remind me how to bareshaft tune.  I remember something about tail right meaning something and tail high meaning something but don't recall what  

[Shan]

Thanks for taking us along! This website really helped me when somebody posted it and i never get tired of returning the favor.


 http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm

Just abt everything you need to know abt that

[The Whittler]

For a right hand shooter watching the arrow fly, if the nock/tail end bends to the left it is too weak, bends right it is too stif.

I use a vertical line on the target to give me a reference for right or left shooting. Good luck and have fun.

[jcar315]

[Killdeer]

Always good to watch you work, John.    :D

We all come up with our own ways of solving problems, according to our own experiences and equipment. You are using tools that I do not own, so my solutions are different. 

I reload metallic case ammunition, so I use a case chamfering tool to clean up the inside of the cut sections of aluminum. I use my arrow saw instead of a hacksaw or tubing cutter. I also use a bench-mounted hand drill to hold the footing instead of needlenose pliers, and a small, fine file on the rotating footing for the outside bevel.

My glue of choice is Gorilla Glue. A light sanding of the arrow shaft under the foot, as well as inside the piece of aluminum, can provide a little extra "tooth", enhancing the glue's ability to hold. 

Again, it's good to see the solutions that a superb craftsman like yourself comes up with for a task that many of us are tackling.
Killdeer  

[gonefishing600]

What purpose does the collars serve?

I would also like to know how these arrows fly when you finish. To me, that sure is a lot of weight up front for a 600.

Did you shoot them bare shaft before cutting them?

Good luck.

[John Scifres]

Thanks for the link Sequoia.  I guess I have to fletch some arrows to follow OL's advice.  Is that how you do it?

Thanks Killy.  Nice of you to say but I am mostly wingin' it here.  One of the CEOs of a company I worked for once said he'd rather get something 80% correct and course correct than to suffer paralysis of analysis trying to get to 100% before you ever implement.

gonefishing600, I guess the collars keep them from splitting.  I saw them on a couple other threads and thought they were cool.

The arrows are about 25% FOC with no fletch.  We'll see if they fly.

I haven't bare shafted or cut them.

[TxAg]

Originally posted by gonefishing600:
What purpose does the collars serve?

I would also like to know how these arrows fly when you finish. To me, that sure is a lot of weight up front for a 600.

Did you shoot them bare shaft before cutting them?

Good luck.

The aluminum acts as a footing. It will greatly toughen up the carbon shaft....as mentioned, keeps them from splitting dueto solid impacts or glancing lows.

[John Scifres]

Yes that's right on the footing.  I thought gonefishing was talking about the nock collars.  I'd like to hear thoughts on those.

[Killdeer]

I was trying, in my wordy way, to say that I enjoy watching a talented newbie tackle a task, purely for the new approaches and fresh solutions. I guess i needed a new approach to expressing myself!  

I used Grizzly Stick Woodies for a while, and on a hard hit the nock end would split. That is why I started using nock collars. The problem has not yet arisen with the Gold Tips.

FYI, I am shooting 600s cut to 27.5". My bow is a Hill that I draw 26", and is 47# at that pull.  I have found no difference in flight with or without frontal sleeving, which on these I cut 1.5".
I only have them that long so I can use them as a tactile draw check. I can hang a finger out to feel them, as I am not sensitive enough yet to feel the edge creep onto the leather shelf  through string and bow hand.

Killdeer

[saumensch]

Only thing i would maybe do different would be to sand the Inserts-outside-part down and glue the footing over this, too.

But              for the thread and effort!

[TxAg]

Originally posted by John Scifres:
Yes that's right on the footing.  I thought gonefishing was talking about the nock collars.  I'd like to hear thoughts on those.

Ahh, I misunderstood.  

I was under the impression that the energy ran through the arrow and exited at the nock end...sometimes nocks blow out or carbons can split at that end, too. Since I started using the 1/4" on the nock end, I haven't had either happen.

[Paul WA]

600 spine out of a 45-47lb bow with all that weight up front? I don't think that's going to work very well but good luck...PR

[Killdeer]

I weighed my fletched arrows with a 175 grain point and they came to 505 grains. I can shoot 200 to 250 grain points with little appreciable change in impact. I just wanted to keep the GPP more reasonable.

For tuning, I stand a few yards back from the target and paper tune before fletching.  When I cut down enough to get bullet holes I move back and make sure they are flying true, then fletch.

Killdeer

[John Scifres]

Paul WA, You are probably correct.  I shot the bare shafts last night.  They weren't horrible but I think point weight will help.  I haven't started cutting yet.  I'm gonna work on it some more tomorrow.  We'll see.

Thanks Killdeer.  Good info.

[Gator1]

I like Kathy's method of combo paper/bare shaft tuning.

I was at a small shoot a while back, and brooks johnson was there, we discussed his method, and it involves shooting bare shafts back to 20 yards, adjusting point weight, until they are in the plate, then fletchesem up.

[eflanders]

John,

Here is a tuning method that I have used when using carbon or aluminum arrows that were "given to me" that aren't neccesarily properly spine matched to my bow but the arrow length can't be shortened anymore:

It simply involves changing the tip weight.  I usually start with a 100 grain tip and then go up from there.  All I do is shoot at a target from about 10 yards.  I draw my bow, close my eyes for a moment, open them and quickly focus on a very small spot and release.  I repeat 2-3 times.  If the shot is consistently high, I add weight until I get it to the right height. (By the way, the reason for closing the eyes is to force you to shoot more instinctively rather than on aiming.)  This method was taught to me by a very hunt saavy ol' timer that just couldn't miss.

Now this process assumes that your nock height is already set for the bow you are shooting. This method is great for growing kids as you aren't having to go out and buy them new arrows every time they grow.