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Author Topic: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows  (Read 23556 times)

Offline Terry Green

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2012, 05:30:00 PM »
I'd like to add....it does NOT take a big, or strong, or stout person to draw heavy bows.  Its all in training and technique.

I remember guys at the gym that were serious weight lifters and body builders that competed.  They saw my 80# bow in the truck one day and wanted to have a go at it and not ONE of them could pull it even close to anchor.  When I pulled it back to anchor about 8 times they thought it was a trick.  One guy was even looking for a 'switch' on my bow.     :biglaugh:    

Now these guys were MUCH bigger than me and could bench 100 to 150#s more than me but the drawing motion is one that I've done basically all my life and one they had not done.

So, just because you are not a brute doesn't mean you can train and draw a heavy bow.  Just make sure you are smart and learn to draw the bow correctly with proper alignment and bone on bone structure and work up slowly and sensibly...and always warm up before while you are training.

Once the new weight is comfortable...that will be your new 'warm up' weight if you want to move up again.

Also, train every other day, just like weights, your muscles need time to repair and grow.
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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2012, 05:47:00 PM »
I used chest pull springs doubled up, dumbbells, and chest pull handles with short tarp straps for bow pulling workouts. Strength training needs to have some form of adjustable tension, so one can go up in increments.  John Schulz suggested getting a heavy training bow, problem with that was that it was spendy and very soon became my hunting bow.  I am a big believer in being able to draw considerably more than what one hunts with, that is where the variable of having something that one can constantly up the resistance comes in without breaking the piggy bank.

Offline UrbanDeerSlayer

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2012, 06:40:00 PM »
I have been intrigued lately with heavy bows.  I have been shooting 50#, just ordered a 58# R/D longbow, and am considering a 65# bow in the classifieds. I had the pleasure of shooting 2 lovely Hummingbird recurves this past weekend, one of which pulled 63# at my DL.  I was surprised that I was able to draw and anchor and shoot about 2 dozen arrows with it. It absolutely threw the 2419's (over 700g) like a missile and hit like a mack truck! It also seemed to allow for a cleaner release and better arrow flight.

Anyway I am not large at just under 6 ft and 165# with just under 28"DL. I also am not young at 44.  I exercise regularly with mostly theraband (rubber) performing multiple arm and upper back exercises.  If the bow is well constructed (smooth drawing), and your form is good with strong back tension then a heavy bow can be a joy to shoot.
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Offline TxAg

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2012, 07:36:00 PM »
As much as my shoulder regrets it every time I shoot a heavy bow, I'm intrigued all over again reading through this thread. Good information and good to hear first hand experiences. Keep it coming guys.

Offline TimDougan

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2012, 08:15:00 PM »
I don't think you can have a bow that hits to hard. Or blows through game to fast. I would rather have to much bow than not enough. Good thread i used to shoot bows 65 to 70 lbs but that was a long time ago. Age and injury won't let me shoot that weight any more. If you can shoot heavy bows and hit your mark go for it. I think this is a good thread lots of good input. TD.

Offline S C Mercer

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2012, 10:29:00 PM »
Some good points here so far.  Much like anything else in life, there is a commitment required to practice your craft and devote the time and energy necessary to use heavier draw weights.   It does not happen over night and any newbies reading this thread need to take heed of this.   Just like any other physical activity,  a person must build their bodies to withstand the rigors of the activity they persue.  This requires dedication and desire to achieve success.   It would be foolish to think you can simply walk outside and run a marathon without training and preparation.  Drawing AND ACCURATELY shooting a heavy draw weight bow under the stress of HUNTING CONDITIONS takes time to develop.  

The advantages of being able to shoot these draw weight are numerous and well worth the effort in my opinion.  The flat trajectory with heavy arrows is a big plus in hunting situations.  There is less wind drift with a heavier arrow moving at higher velocity.  Incidental contact with an object in the arrows trajectory may not adversely affect the course of flight as much as a light arrow with less energy behind it.   A heavier draw weight means heavier limbs which resist torque and limb twist.  A crisper release is easier to achieve with a heavy draw weight.  A larger broadhead with larger cutting surfaces can be used with heavier draw weights without impeding penetration.  An accidental scapula or spine hit, though not desirable, might be lethal due to increased arrow energy on impact.   If you short draw your bow due to an awkward position during a hunting situation, you will have more energy transfering into the arrow to achieve better penetration than you will if you short draw a light bow (effectively robbing the bows power stroke).  

Those are a few of the advantages an archer can expect from building his body to use heavier draw weights.   For the newbies,  unless you're a naturally gifted athlete with freak strength,   please take the time to build the strength necessary to PROPERLY shoot a bow before immediately jumping to 70+ # bows.   Don't try to rush it.  If you work at it, it'll come in due time and you'll be much better off in the long run.   ~Steve

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2012, 04:20:00 AM »
1. hunt with the heaviest holding weight you can consistently shoot accurately under hunting venue conditions.  this may be 40# or 90# - or whatever.  we're all unique, vive la difference.

2. use a bow holding weight and arrow weight that is commensurate with the type of game hunted.  can't master beyond 45# holding weight and you wanna hunt moose?  check yer ethics and maybe git a rifle.

3. don't hurt yerself.  there are well proven, documented, safe methods of increasing bow holding weights.  get with a program and regimen, don't rush it, and do it the right way.  

4. be aware of "over bowing" and realize there *may* be long term detrimental physical effects due to shooting "heavy bow weights".

5. shooting heavier weight bows allows for a better finger release, more mass weight arrows (better penetration), and in some cases offers a flatter arrow trajectory.  i'd add in that heavy bows are just more "manly" (to some individuals) but that would be bs.   :D  

enjoy the journey, relish the rewards.
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Offline Terry Green

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2012, 09:34:00 AM »
I've had some emails based on some comments I made asking 'how to' move up properly.

1st let me say I'm no physical trainer with no 'certification'....but I do know what worked for me so I'll pass it along......

OK, before you start you need to make sure you are drawing your current bow correctly ....i.e., proper alignment and bone on bone structure.

Make sure you are 'closing the door behind you' with a rotational draw which will help immensely getting your alignment correct AND you will be able to pull more weight easier.

Here's a link explaining....in case some of you never go to the shooters form forum....

       Link to Alignment Thread  
 
Also, get a 'hook' on the string....this will help you pull more weight easier as well than shooting off the pads of your fingers(finger tips).  Imagine trying to start an old rope pulled lawn mower with the handle on the tiips of your fingers rather than having your fingers wrapped around it.

More in a bit.......
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Offline Russ Clagett

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2012, 09:36:00 AM »
Terry,

thanks for your post, it brings up the real truth....it is all about technique. I have an Army buddy who we call "Mongo"...he has a 56 inch chest, a 34 inch waist, 20 inch arms, and no neck.......

At the house the other day he wanted to see my bow....and he tried to draw it. You should have seen the look on his face........priceless. Especially when I proceeded to draw it fully about 8 times......

And this is a man who I have personally seen bench press 340 pounds over 20 times without stopping or changing the expression on his face....

It's all about training and technique. Over time you will get stronger, but it's a byproduct.

Offline 59Alaskan

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2012, 09:45:00 AM »
thanks for posting Terry.  Was wondering where to look for info on this.
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Offline pdk25

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2012, 10:27:00 AM »
Russ, I am not surprised by that story.  I am by far not the strongest member on here and I am in far worse shape than I was at my peak when I could bench press 350 pounds and deadlift around 550 pounds, but I can draw roughly twice as much weight now than I could then.

Offline Rossco7002

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2012, 12:17:00 PM »
I'd like to hear some safe strategies that people have used to successfully bump up the weight too. As personal challenge this is really starting to intrigue me...
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Offline longbowman

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2012, 01:46:00 PM »
As several have stated before, you don't have to be a beast to shoot heavy equipment correctly.  The video clip below is my son who weighs in at just under 135# shooting his 93# longbow.  Just clik on the picture.
   

Offline BowHunterGA

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2012, 02:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rossco7002:
I'd like to hear some safe strategies that people have used to successfully bump up the weight too. As personal challenge this is really starting to intrigue me...
I will share my methods but as I think others have stated I am not, nor do I want to be, an expert. I am simply going to share with you what has worked for me. Above all else, make sure you take your time and listen to what your body is telling you. Sore muscles is part of it but pain is a different matter. Pain is your body telling you that that something is wrong so don't ignore it. Here is how I increased my drawing and holding weight. (I started at 56# and increased to 100#+ in about 6 months, your results will vary)

Use basic exercises to increase upper body strength. Push ups and more importantly pullups. Pullups will strengthen your back and a strong and healthy back is critical in my humble opinion. This was in conjunction with other exercises but worked into a workout routine. Slooooow reps, 3 sets when you do either and as many reps as you can do in each set. Also fast and furious may look impressive but the results are in going slow and steady and always remember that negative resistance (When you are going down on pushups and pullups) is as much as, if not more effective than the up motion.

{b]Dumbell rows[/b] - again with proper form and a slow steady rythem. If you are going to fast or jerking the dumbells then you are not getting any benefit and you will likely hurt yourself. When using dumbell rows, think about your form when you are shooting your bow. You should feel the same back tension at the top of the row. Almost like you are trying to hold a tennis ball between your shoulder blades.

Bow exercises 1 - Shoot the bow. Focus on proper form and not the quantity of shots but the quality.

The next two exercises should only be done a few times a week. Be sure to give your muscles time to recover.

Bow exercises 2
- With a bow that is near your current weight limit. After a shooting session with a bow you are comfortable in shooting. Take the heavier bow (you should be warmed up before this!!!!!) and in a shooting stance draw the bow to 1/3 draw and hold for a 3-5 count. Then draw to 1/2 and repeat the count. Then to full draw and hold at anchor and repeat the count. Reduce to half draw and count, reduce to 1/3rd and count. Now repeat this process with your other arm. This is 1 set. Wait 90 second and repeat the set for 3 sets. When you are first starting a new weight you may need to hold for only 2 seconds. As you get stronger you can increase the hold time. Again, the negative resistance as you let the bow down is important. Go slow.

Bow exercise 3 - Another exercise that allows me to mix up my routine (remember your body will adjsut quickly, you have to mix things up to keep your muscles confused and adapting) Take the bow and with your normal shooting arm, draw the blow to anchor in a smooth but speedy draw. Perhaps a slight bit faster than if you were drawing the bow to shoot. Again, do not jerk or snatch the string back, this is just a normal type draw. Once at anchor begin letting the bow down in a slow and deliberate motion. Much like if you were trying to let down without spooking game. I usually try to count to 20 as I let down. Hitting 20 about the time the bow hits brace. This focuses on that negative pressure I keep talking about, it is different than what your muscles are used to when drawing and shooting a bow. Therefore you will put new stress on your muscles.

With any of the bow exercises practice using good form. These should be done with the same motions used when shooting without the release of the string. I would also recommend you start out with a bow you are very comfortable with as I promise you, it will be like starting over again regarding how it will make your muscles sore.


The last thing I will throw out is the use of resistance bands. These are great in that there is always the negative resistance I keep mentioning. I picked up a set at a local sporting goods store for about $30 and use them regularly.

This is what has worked for me......your results may vary!

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2012, 02:58:00 PM »
there are more than a few good bow holding weight training programs.  here's a super simple one where you can use yer current bow as a training tool for holding heavier weights.  

with your current, easy to shoot bow, and without using an arrow, draw the bow to your normal anchor, then pull it past that anchor to a predetermined second "anchor" point and maintain proper form.  

as an example, if your normal anchor is side-of-mouth, continue drawing to the back of your jaw line.  or it could be to your ear.

you should definitely feel this added holding weight tension, but it should not be a strain.  it should be effort.  there should be no pain.

again, this assumes you have complete control over your current bow - you can draw to full anchor with good form, good line up of your upper body, and hold at full anchor without creeping for at least TWO seconds.  if not, you really need to work this training program.  

hold the second anchor for a count of 1 or 2 or 3, whatever is easiest for starters.  let down.

if yer having an issue holding at your NORMAL anchor, do NOT go to a second anchor, train at your normal anchor first.  

do this in increasing reps and hold times, daily.  

for the best of shoulder/arm conditioning, hold your bow in your drawing hand (reversed!) and draw it a few times ONLY to your anchor.  no weight training for this side of your body, only stretch balance conditioning.

how many training reps?  it can vary, you don't want to strain, you want to train.  this is important.  if something feels like its too much, don't do it.  go VERY slow, take it easy, and don't do this if yer not up to it physically or mentally (too tired, sick, stressed out over something, etc).  if you do too much, too soon, you will tear down instead of break down and build up.  and as we age, we need to slow down, do things easier and for longer periods of time.  

for the average person, inside of a month you will be able to easily handle 5 to 8 pounds more holding weight.  inside of two months it could be as much as 15 or more pounds of additional holding weight.  

this has nothing to do with your physical build or current state of strength.  this is a repetitive muscle isometric isolation program and must be done daily or all bets are off.  it has helped me (in my advancing years) to continue to hold a 55# bow with very little effort. i know, i know - not a "heavy weight" bow, but for me it means the difference between the 55# i enjoy to having to go down to 45#.  
     
this exercise can also be done with a simple "rubber band" - a bicycle inner tube.  so for you white collar desk jockeys, there's no excuse not training to keep in shape with yer current holding weight, or work on holding more weight.
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Offline Cochise

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »
Howdy
I shoot heavy warbows with a group here in AZ
we train and strengthen ourselves using bicycle
inner tubes looped around a pole or tree..
we vary the height of the tubes on the tree/pole to simulate the angles we use to arc in our arrows accurately at distance.
the bows i have vary from 120#s to 170#s and there are several members who use over 200# bows..
Cochise

Offline rmorris

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2012, 04:16:00 PM »
I do not think it is a good idea to EVER play with your anchor point, not in practice , not in training , not ever. Your anchor point is soo important to keep constant! some experts say you have to something as little as 50 times to make or break a habit. If you manage to mess up your muscle memory on where your anchor point is ,it can cost you months of training to get it back.

A while back I had a request from a friend for a 65# bow and I am a 45# shooter so I considered that to be a heavy bow to me. I told the friend it would be a few extra months before I could get him his bow because I do not shoot 65# bows.

As soon as I know he wanted the bow I picked up a 50# bow I had and started shooting it till I was as accurate with it as I was my daily shooter. I kept moving up in 5# increments until I could shoot that bow as well as my 45# bow. To move up 20# in weight took me about 2.5 months and I kept borrowing bows from friends because I did not have anything over 55#. I am not back down to the upper 40's again but I think i could move back up in weight much quicker this time, having done it once.
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Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2012, 04:30:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rmorris:
I do not think it is a good idea to EVER play with your anchor point, not in practice , not in training , not ever. Your anchor point is soo important to keep constant! some experts say you have to something as little as 50 times to make or break a habit. If you manage to mess up your muscle memory on where your anchor point is ,it can cost you months of training to get it back.

...
what you describe is not at all true.  you haven't tried it or you would not have made yer post.  

the second hold point is not a real "anchor point", it's a stop point so you don't pull any more or any less, and you are not aiming.  you do maintain form (stance, shoulders, bow arm, draw arm, head angle, etc) - this is the part you don't want to untrain.  yer just pulling primarily with your back muscles.

this is not a new training method, i did not invent it, it's been used for at least half a known century by archers world wide.  extremely young asian archers are trained in this method using rubber bands, for a very long time before they're even allowed to draw a bow, and they are collectively probably the best target archers on planet earth.  

give it a go - you do need to do it to understand what it's about and the effect it has on your ability to hold heavier weights at a true anchor and/or to hold for increased periods of time (as needed for target archery = watch the nbc olympics vids - most of the men are holding 50# or more for as much as 10 seconds or longer without any body or bow movement, dittos for the ladies).
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Online frassettor

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2012, 07:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
[QB] I'd like to add....it does NOT take a big, or strong, or stout person to draw heavy bows.  Its all in training and technique.

I remember guys at the gym that were serious weight lifters and body builders that competed.  They saw my 80# bow in the truck one day and wanted to have a go at it and not ONE of them could pull it even close to anchor.  When I pulled it back to anchor about 8 times they thought it was a trick.  One guy was even looking for a 'switch' on my bow.        :goldtooth:        :jumper:
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Offline Wild Bill MCP 808

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Re: The Arguement FOR Heavy Bows
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2012, 07:14:00 PM »
Shoot as heavy as you can accurately shoot. Up to the individual behind the bow. What is your dedication factor? What is your conditioning factor? You get out of it what you put in it. I like heavy for hunting.

That's just me

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