So Frustrated with the Michigan DNR

[Pokerdaddy]

I posted this in the Michigan Longbow section, but would like to get opinions from others outside my state as well.  My question would be: do compounds belong in an "Introduction to Archery" class?

So, a few weeks ago my wife expressed interest in learning traditional archery.  I was and am very excited!  Well, I got an email from the Michigan DNR that they would be offering an "Introduction to Archery" class for women in Saginaw.  I thought this sounded great, and forwarded the email to my wife.  She agreed it sounded like a great way to learn the basics.  The class is going on this evening from 6-9pm.

She texted me as the class was starting...COMPOUNDS!!!  How is that possibly INTRODUCTION to archery?  I am so frustrated to think that women looking for a start in archery are being pushed towards mechanical bows, and being told that is archery!

Heck, a lot of the class (ages 10 and up) were possibly piqued by the recent examples of archery in the movies and the Olympics...all traditional archery.

I left it up to her whether to stay at the class.  She texted that they "dug up" a traditional bow.  If she stays I'll be proud of her for sticking it out, even though she'll be the odd one out.

Does anyone think an "Intro" class should be trad not wheels?

[59Alaskan]

Boy Scouts in our area has converted to compounds.  This may be a national trend for them, not sure.  Ohio DNR uses wheels for their intro classes too.   Reality is this is how many start.  My first bow was wheeled.  It brought me to trad so to speak.

[agtex42]

I don't think they are out of line by starting folks on compounds.  I think the intent behind an introductory class should be to get the students interested in the sport.  With good instruction most folks are able to shoot very respectable groups on their first day with a wheel bow.  These kind of results are what makes folks take the step from "interested" to invested.  Some will eventually make the cross-over to tradtional bows but most will stick with the wheels.  Either way it's a good outreach tool to the non-bowhunting community and the methods don't really rub me the wrong way.

[riverrat 2]

They don't know any better Pokerdaddy. Heck,just ask one of the 40 million deer in our herd count from the dnr! By there counting,a deer should be standing right next to you!! Ha! I ramble. I apologize,rat'

[Pokerdaddy]

Thanks for the feedback.  My kneejerk reaction was disbelief, but I guess there's some method to the madness.

[ripforce56]

ya I know how they do that "scientific" deer count , my brotherinlaw works for a Parks and Rec sometimes when he travels to an access site they tell him to write down & count every deer he sees to and from the jobsite! If he counts say 6 deer on the way and the same 6 on the way back thats 12 differant deer! Kind of like the unemployment #s they never add up! LOL

[Yellow Dog]

What agtex42 said. It could be worse, they could have used Xbows. It's about bringing more people into the sport of bowhunting. My personal preference has been stickbows for the last twenty years. I arrived there because the other methods were no longer a challenge. I started with a stick as a teenager, went to compounds in the mid 70's and back to sticks twenty years later. Never got hung up on the "my way is the only way" thing.

[jsweka]

I agree with agetex42.  

There's nothing wrong with beginning with a compound.  Heck, if it weren't for the compound, I doubt I'd be shooting a longbow today.  Looking back, I sure wish I would have started with a traditional bow, but I don't regret my compound days - had a lot of fun, learned the skills of bowhunting, and killed enough deer to make me want to up the challenge.

[The Whittler]

Introduction to Archery= learning about shooting bows. It dosen't say stick bows just archery. Nothing wrong with compounds.

Maybe they need someone to teach about stick bows, just a thought.

[AZWarts]

If it gives them confidence great. I don't have a problem with people using compounds but they do get on my nerves talking about how they are die hard bow hunter. Its when they say that that it gets me a little ticked off

[AZWarts]

Then again if they like shooting wheelie bows and stick with it that is just more people that are going to strike down the antis when it comes to archery and hunting.

[Pokerdaddy]

OK, I was starting to come around, till I got the after class report.  When my wife insisted on a longbow or leaving, they "dug up" a longbow.  The DNR instructor made the following comments, "why would you want to shoot one of those", "I hope you don't plan on ever hunting...I don't even want to get into the ethics", and "you'll never be able to hit the target with one of those."

[moebow]

I can't help but wonder if your "compound" introductory bow is a Genesis.  

Folks, yes, they have wheels on them BUT they shoot more like our equipment than like C bows.  They have a draw weight that runs from essentially 0 to 20# they DO NOT HAVE A LET OFF AND NO WALL. They are shot with fingers, no sights, stabilizers, etc.

For general classes where one bow fits most all they are a GREAT choice.  If you are serious about having folks take up archery, then give them the chance to take up archery.  The students that have learned on the Genesis are MUCH more at home with trad equipment than with C bows and all the associated "stuff."

For an "open" program it makes far more sense to use a bow that can be adjusted to anyone, than to have problems trying to match bow length, draw weight, and arrow length to each student.  If you are so hardcore "Trad" that you cannot fathom a wheel on the end of the bow, then stay away from public programs or be sure the student you send already has an appropriate bow with them.

I too disagree with a "full up" compound as a learning bow but the Genesis is NOT THAT!!!  This topic comes up from time to time and I absolutely think it is the BEST bow for learning EVER DEVELOPED!!!  There may be other better bows than the Genesis but in over 50 years of instructing (all trad) I haven't seen it!  

Sorry for the rant, and if the program isn't using the Genesis, then disregard all the above, but I bet they are.

Arne

[moebow]

Pokerdaddy,
Your last post came in while I was still ranting  

I stand by my statements above, but would really get in the face of the DNR  person that made that last statement. There is education needed on both sides.

Arne

[BRIARS]

Compounds are not the devils weapon. 90 percent of the people that want to bow hunt do not have the time to develop the skills to be effective stick bow hunters. Compounds do require practice but not the amount of dedication it takes to become and stay proficient as a stick bow.

I have taken deer with longbows, homemade selfbows and recurves. But I had to go back to a wheeled bow for awhile. For 10 years I shot everyday. Then as I got older my free time got less. I slowly over years quit shooting enough and I was no longer accurate enough to hunt with a stick bow. I picked up a bow that allowed me to hunt effectively.

I used to think doing it the hard way was the only way to go. But there are times when being a more effective harvester is more important.

[KSdan]

They use the Genesis here in KS introduction.

[Pokerdaddy]

Gentlemen, I wish to offer a slight retraction.  After reading moebow's posts I asked my wife and they were shooting Genesis bows.  I apologize for my overreacting.  I stand by my disdain for the comments made by the instructor, but I understand the use of the Genesis.

I think I was especially defensive as I was the one who suggested the course in the first place, and felt responsible for her having a fun, effective introduction.

Thank you for all your comments, and for educating me on some of the introductory courses out there.

[moebow]

Pokerdaddy,

We should all "  stand by my disdain for the comments made by the instructor"  !!!!!!

         

Arne

[Jim Wright]

Just curious how you know that "90 per cent of the people who want to bow hunt do not have the time to develop the skills to be effective stick bow hunters." In fact after thinking about it, just how much time does it take?

[gvdocholiday]

I can guarantee you that not a single Park and Rec employee within the DNR offers input on deer count.  

Also, all of the bows that the DNR uses for the archery classes have been supplied with grant funding my Mr. MacPherson of Mathews Archery.  All genesis bows, where one bow can be used by a 4yo up to an adult.  Cost benefit wise, it's better that way.  They don't use sights or releases.  They use tabs/gloves and all of the bows are setup with an integrated NAP Centerest.

Remember, these classes are to get first timers into the sport.  Compounds easily make up 95% of the archery market and I'd wager that most of us started out with wheels...I know I did.  

I'd also be interested in the name of the individual who made those comments about the use of a longbow.  I'm interested to know where the introductory class was held and who the instructor was.  I know a few times they use volunteers as well as the PE teachers that the DNR has trained to implement the NASP programs in the schools.  I have the ability to offer input on this to the people who can make changes.  However if I don't have valid specifics, the complaint carries no weight.  

Well, I'm off to climb in my black helicopter and tranq some mountain lions in MN and transplant them in Jackson Co.