Hybrid Longbow Handles

[PZee]

Hi all,

I have a question regarding hybrid longbow handles. As far as I can see it, there seem to be 2 types. 1st where the throat of the grip is at the centre of the bow like a Toelke Whip and Kanati, and 2nd where the throat is above centre like a Centaur and BigJim TC.
What is the difference between the 2?

Thanks in advance
Pete

[Frenchymanny]

I am a BigJim bow shooter, and I am not sure I understand your question.
BigJim would be able to replicate any grip you like

F-Manny

[PZee]

Het F-Manny,

Thanks for the response.... If you look at the 2 types of handles mentioned above on the respective bows. One you grip the bow with the web of your hand at centre, the other type is above centre, so centre of these bows would be in the palm of your hand. centre being equal distance to the centre from tip to tip. Or am I only imagining this?
Unfortunately I can't get to shoot any of these bows, I still have to find someone in SA that owns one. We have 5 or 6 bowyers here, as SA is totally compound crazy.
I have built my own now and am at the stage where the handle needs to be glued on, thus I was wondering what the difference is.

Sorry about the long winded post, maybe this would be better in the Bowyers Bench.

Thanks

Pete

[centaur]

As Frenchymanny says, Big Jim can make a bow with any type of grip. My TC has a medium wrist, but he also makes high wrist and low wrist (more of a recurve/longbow style respectively).

[Jeff Strubberg]

I think what you are seeing is the difference between what we call a low wrist and a high wrist grip.  A low wrist grip is designed to be comfortable when you let your wrist collapse and the heel of your hand lay along the bow handle.  A high wrist grip is designed to be used more like a recurve, where your wrist is straight and the bow lies against the web between your thumb and palm.  I think the high wrist grip means less chance of you the archer twisting the bow offline or doing something else goofy, while the low wrist grip gives you more control over a bow that might have a tendency to bounce around.


My personal opinion is that the closer your hand sits to the shelf of the bow, the more natually the bow points.  I want the dip above center, as you put it.  Right below the shelf.

[katman]

I would think its due to where the bowyer wants the pressure point to be, advantages of either ?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Typically the deepest part of the grip is located dead center between the tip notches, and the limbs are adjusted in strength to the pressure point so they bend together.

The location of the shelf depends on shooting style. shooting off the shelf locating the shelf as close as possible to your hand is desireable. especially so if you want the ability to cant the bow not effect your windage.

but.... there is a lot of philosophy out there among bowyer's regarding grip location......

if you place the center of a dish shaped grip dead center between the tip notches, the arrow nock will be off center almost 2".  Oh sure... the limbs will draw nice and even putting even pressure on the grip, but when you drop the string the weight of the arrow on the string is out of balance requiring a stronger lower limb.

There is a myth that this can be compensated for just using positive tiller on the lower limb. this is not true....you still have the mass limb weight out of whack......

These same bowyer's that insist that hand shock is just part of the design and you have to learn how to shoot the bow to compensate for it. they recommend heeling down on the grip helps the hand shock generated by the imbalance of the limbs.....yup this does keep your dentures out of the dirt, but the shock is still there... or the "Thump" some call it. There are others that swear by cutting the lower limbs shorter to balance things out.....

all these things are practiced and done every day. And ....all these bows do shoot arrows too.
But how efficient are these bows really shooting?

The question you have to ask yourself is that do you want to  learn to shoot a bow that is out of balance and learn to deal with the hand shock, and join the ranks of archers out there that say "Speed doesn't matter"....

or ....take the time to time and balance the limbs to the pressure point applied and keep that arrow shaft as close to center as possible so that it eliminates the shock and transfers that wasted energy into the arrow shaft.

there's 2 cents worth, and a bit of my own philosophy for what it's worth.    Kirk

[30coupe]

I've tried many different grip styles, but the Kanati shoots the best for me. As Jeff says, I want the shelf right above my hand. The Kanati puts it there.

That said, bow grips are such a personal thing, what works for me won't necessarily work for you. Judging by the number of people who like the forward handle style of the Kanati, Whip, Shrew, Lost Creek, Black Creek, etc. it works for lots of folks.

[30coupe]

Kirk kind of beat me to the punch. The bows like the Kanati have zero hand shock. I know there are those who will argue that, but they probably haven't shot one. The balance of Jason's bows makes them extremely efficient. My 46# Kanati and my 50# Orion recurve shoot the exact same arrow set-up. The speed is close enough that I can't tell a difference. I can pick up either bow and shoot to the same point of aim. I haven't shot one of Kirk's bows, but I think you can bank on what he is telling you.

[PaulRoberts]

Kirk, that is an excellent post.

But, aren’t there two pressure points, in drawing a bow?

There is the grip point, and there is also the drawing hand -the opposite end of the pressure vector. (I see the draw point as the middle finger of a split finger shooter.)

If one designs to equalize forces around the grip point, the draw point is above that. (On the custom and factory glass-backed bows I own, this lines up about perfectly with the shelf height.) Thus the draw vector, between grip and draw, is asymmetrical. And the arrow is above the draw vector making forces on it even more assymterical.

Am I right in thinking that, to equalize limbs around the draw vector one would tiller limbs at the in between point of grip and draw hand? Is the most efficient design in terms of symmetry a high wrist (hand web grip) with shelf cut just above the hand? Wouldn’t this keep draw forces as equal as possible?

[johnny girardi]

I think you need to measure center of bow or grip by measureing end of fades to center. Not string grove tips.Center should be at pivit point of riser grip.You can put shelf were you want 1",1.25" 2" above center.

[Sixby]

Paul both you and Kirk are correct. A high wrist does put the center of the bow and the draw hand into more perfect alignment/ However not too many shoot a high wrist. Some of us put the pressure directly between the forefinger and thumb and little pressure if any on the rest of the hand./ This allows one to shoot a great variety of grip styles with little difficulty/ I can pick up just about any bow and shoot it/ From the shooting I have seen Kirk do he can do the same and he uses much the same grip style if I remember correctly/
There is a lot more to this than is being discussed here . Such as closeness of center of string to center of arrow on rest which puts more  the pressure created by each limb to the center of the arrow increasing the speed . of course the high wrist grip style creates the best relationship of the two and should in theory at least produce a faster arrow with less ossilation caused by one limb having to catch up to the other in order to hit brace at the same time. This is getting deep into the woods though.

God bless you all, Steve

[PZee]

Ok, what I was refering to is pressure point. This was not a which is a better bow thread, as I might never get to buy any of them. But why some pressure points are at centre and why some are above.

As far as I understand a centre pressure point is better or best, but then the shelf with the standard 1 1/2' above centre is far to high, so bring the shelf closer to centre? So mybe 1/2' above centre, or even closer?

I will still have to tiller to balance the bow, but with a centre pressure point and very low shelf, just above the hand should be easier to tiller and balance? Am I correct in thinking this?

Thanks a million for your input so far!

Pete

[Sixby]

Pete, your hand is the fulcrim. The most pressure is going to be directly in the center of the bow if the tiller is dead even. However you have to have room for part of your hand above that. I have personally found that 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch below the shelf is about as close as you can get. generally that ends up with you haveing plus 1/16 to 1/8 tiller/
It has also been my experience that there always seems to be a need for compromise with what you would deem to be technicaly perfect but that the closer that you can juggle things towards that perfection the better performing the bow will be.

God bless you all, Steve

[PaulRoberts]

Thanks, Steve.