What ever happened to a Cedar arrow & 125gr BH

[wooddamon1]

Messed with carbons in the off-season just for kicks, always hunt with wood and 125gr Magnus or Zwickey heads. I do have some heavier Ace heads I want to try, though...

[Shedrock]

Wood arrows with 125-160 grain heads is all I use. In my mind, that is all that is needed for anything in North America.

[AWPForester]

Fanto, I wander if all the tribes 1000 years ago have read Dr. Ashby's reports?  I am sure they killed their fair share of big game animals.  I don't think his reports proves anything that you claimed.  However, common sense and shot placement with well tuned arrows tipped with sharp broadhheads have proven to kill foor century's, not high foc arrows.  God Bless

[Bernie B.]

It's really hard to beat the aroma of making cedar arrows.  That's what is in my quiver with Magnus 125 grain heads.  I've used Bear Razorheads for over forty years, and they too work great.  I love the nostalgia of these arrows.

Bernie Bjorklund

NC Iowa/SW Wisconsin

[deaddoc4444]

I remember it well that it was standard !   "BACK  in the day"   it was unusual to have heavy heads ! There were TWO available   The Howard Hill head was HEAVY  at   150 grains .  ( at least they weighed that on my scale no matter what they were advertised at ). AND Pearson Dead heads  which came at  140 and 160 ( advertised )   MOST guys wanted the 140s   cause it was closest to the 125 head THAT WAS THE NORM !
    NOW that said , it was PROBABLY  the reason that SOME arrows got the reputation for Erratic flight, with broad-heads!     Not enough weight in the front. POSSIBLY why Pearson Dead heads and HH Bhs   ALWAYS  flew so well for me . JUST A THOUGHT  !

[gringol]

Originally posted by Fanto:
Reading Dr. Ashby's testing it is very clear that high FOC (25% and up) coupled with overall arrow weight over 650grns is required to lethally penetrate large, heavy boned animals like asiatic water buffalo.


Its a peace of mind thing for us novices I think, if you know your arrow will split a buffalo rib, penetrate both lungs and then exit the far side of the ribcage, then surely a deer or goat will be cleanly killed with one shot.

Absolutely, but 99% of hunters are using water-buffalo set-ups for whitetails.  A 125 grn head is plenty for most north american game.  In fact, stone points often weigh considerably less than 100 grns and they have been bringing down north america game for thousands of years...

I'm shooting 125s this year.  I'll let you know what penetration looks like when I bag something bigger than a racoon...

[Quickblood]

Been shooting cedars and 125 Eskimos since the beginning, over 40 years ago.  Never deviated and see no reason to start.  Heck, I don't even know what FOC or EFOC means, nor do I care.  Glad to hear there are some other old timers here.

[AngelDeVille]

Hell you can put lights and whirly-gigs on your arrows now too... doesn't mean I'm gonna do it.

[cedar]

125's and POC or Douglas Fir is all you will ever see in my quiver.  No reason to change.

[Jeff Strubberg]

Well, quality cedar has gotten hard and harder to come by.

Newer bows are also getting more efficient, which means we need higher spine weights, which makes the shortage of good cedar even harder to live with.

Both have pushed us into looking at other arrow materials (like we needed a push, right?).  Once you start messing around with "artificial" arrow shafts, you can get crazy spines and start playing with things like more point weight.

[Roger Norris]

I think is just easier to put together a great arrow with carbon and high FOC than it is to put together cedar shaft.

I was thinking along the same lines this weekend. I used to worry sbout overall arrow weight. Now I'm thinking FOC....

[ron w]

60-65 or 55-60 125 gr up front,cedar, poplar, ash or laminated birch....fly very well for me!

[razorsharptokill]

When I don't have a primative stone tipped arrow on the string, I am shooting zwickey eskimos on POC shafts out of my selfbow. They fly quick, flat and straight!

[dragonheart]

Next year for me.  I am going back to 145 or 160 up front on wood.  Shooting 220 grain BH on fir shaft at this time.  Into the season and my brain is used to this arrow flight pattern.  I am going back next year to get a little faster arrow.  125-160 on the nose has worked for along time.  Just get the spine right for that weight BH.

[snag]

What happened? You got old Mark! haha Just kidding. I totally agree. The pendulum has swung a long way to one side and is slowly coming back to center again. 125-160gr heads have killed a lot of animals over the decades. Since I'm not hunting water buffalo I'll stick with my setup. Good hunting buddy!

[Fletcher]

Lighter weight shafts and arrows with 125 grain broadheads have been killing things just fine for a long time, will continue to do so and are obviously up to the task.  That doesn't mean we can't do better.  The experiences of many hunters, and the Ashby studies in particular, have proven that there are real advantages to heavy arrows and high FOC's, especially with marginal and bone hits.

The Ashby studies started out with deer size game and the findings are very applicable to deer.  He had to move up to the heavy stuff to test the equipment to its limits.

I'm a great fan of Zwickey Deltas and won't hesitate send one toward some hair if that's what flies the best.  I found myself liking heavier heads a long time ago before I ever heard about the Ashby studies.  I'm currently shooting 200 grainers on my fir shafts.

[RM81]

Originally posted by Brad Arnett:
I don't think anyone says it won't work or that you NEED heavy front loaded carbons to kill deer. the nature of light stiff carbons pretty much requires upping point weight to soften them up.

Originally posted by Brad Arnett:
I thinks its just ease of use and time. I know its much less time consuming to sit down and have a dozen carbons up and running than to make a dozen woodies.

These are two of the reasons I do it.  The carbons I use are a little light in GPI (under 10gpp for my setup), so I used a stiffer shaft b/c it's heavier per inch to get my total arrow weight up.  Then I needed to add more tip weight since switching to a heavier spine to get them to fly straight.  My setup puts me at about 10 grains per pound, but I have 250 grains up front.  If I knew how to make woodies and had the tools, I'd definitely try it out and would have no problems using 125 grain heads if the arrow flew well.

The third reason is that it's less expensive for me as I already had the tools and knowledge from my compound days.

[psychmonky]

Originally posted by AWPForester:
Fanto, I wander if all the tribes 1000 years ago have read Dr. Ashby's reports?  I am sure they killed their fair share of big game animals.  I don't think his reports proves anything that you claimed.  However, common sense and shot placement with well tuned arrows tipped with sharp broadhheads have proven to kill foor century's, not high foc arrows.  God Bless

I SWORE to myself that I wasn't going to get dragged into this debate, because you guys are right....the cedar+125gr head have killed a bazillion deer...

The above quote is not entirely accurate though...not trying to single any one out. I've heard this argument dozens of times and always go back to the reports Ashby did, not on foc, but on the tribes in papua new guinea. Those tribes shoot ridiculous amounts of FOC and have been since they acquired iron.

As for the native americans....its not as if the popularly romanticized mental image of the wise, nature-conscious, environmentally responsible indian using his trusty longbow to feed his family is entirely accurate either. When they HAD to eat, they often drove bison off of cliffs, because it is stupid to "hunt" when you have more sure-fire methods of not starving to death.

Also, while they did kill thousands of deer with flint heads and wood arrows, as soon as they got their hands on some guns they started using those, because guess what...their flint heads weren't all that effective.

Cue angry cries of "he's bashing the proud native americans!" Im not. They were survivors and they used THE MOST EFFECTIVE TOOLS THEY HAD AVAILABLE. Why shouldn't we do the same?

[Shakes.602]

I Vote for the Old and Trustworhty too!    Call me Old Fashioned, I appreciate it!!  

[TJK68]

That is what I am hunting with my friend. Cedar shafts and the Bear razor heads with out the bleeders. Works great for me.
Tom