What ever happened to a Cedar arrow & 125gr BH

[gringol]

well said, brock.  

160 and 125 grain heads on wood shafts is all I use, and until I hunt water buffalo or t-rex I see no reason to change.  simplicity is a beautiful thing.

[Buxndiverdux]

I think alot of guys like to tinker with arrows and broadhead combinations. It makes things fun. Once you get your bow/arrow combination spined correctly, there is nothing left to tinker with. Thats no fun.  

[AWPForester]

pdk25, I think the exsitence of mankind kinda suggest that like game was killed as needed with non EFOC arrows.  Besides, my post said nothing about recent hunting of Asiatic Buffalo's with ultra light setups.  Use what suits you, just don't expect everyone to fall head over hills in line to do the same.  Cause what this original thread was about was wood arrows and 125 grain broadheads.  Not how well Dr. Ashby or efoc has done, or what is needed to kill Asiatic buffalo.

BTW, the test I was referring to were done by men over the decades in targets, not animals.  Which is really the only consitenet medium that can be toughted as consitent enough to give semi accurate results.  But resuls tend to go both ways.

But to prove I was actually thinking with my own brain, I have watched africian tribes on you tube stab lions to death with short spears and knives.  So I just assumed since the human race has multiplied to over 6 billion people now that we had a good start from eating all those animals that were touted as can only be killed by a $60 arrow with a 30% foc or higher.  My mistake.

Scarne, I shot a big doe last year at 12 yards as she looked up at me head on.  The arrow entered the neck below the white patch, traveled down the neck, into the boiler room and poked out the sternum.  All the arrow was hanging out hanging out but the feathers.  I know this because she feel in her tracks.  The only reason it didn't go all the way may have been because it hit the ground and stopped.

It was with a 49 pound longbow, dacron string, and an arrow that weighed 418 grains.  I shot a buck 2 weeks ago that was at 22 yards broadside.  59 pound Longbow, Ultra cam string, 500 grain doug fir tipped with a 3 blade 125 grain MA-3.  Busted through both shoulders no problem.  If you do the math, that is a little over 8 gpp in both cases and about 11% foc.  Seems to be working just fine.

This really is getting ridiculious.  It always does when you try to suggest that for your purposes, you see no need in a EFOC arrow.  God BLess

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by Scarne:

Are you going to push a 3 blade through all that with a 53 pound recurve?  No chance.  You going to do that with 10 GPP set up?  No chance.  Are you going to do that with a non-3:1 BH? Yes, I did it with an DB Ace.  (Today I have SB grizzly's)

 

The ten-pointer on my wall would disagree with you. I shot him in 2002 at the same angle and penetrated the same things as you, with a 53# Chek-Mate Hunter II and a 475-grain arrow tipped with a Wensel Woodsman.

There were two differences though. Your deer weighed 175#, mine was 200#...dressed. Your arrow stopped at the fletching; mine burried in the dirt.

[Nate Steen .]

great thought provoking thread DD....

back in the 80's and 90's there was a fella named Jake Powell...some of you newer fellas probably never heard of him...anyway, out west he was/is an unsung legend.  He shot almost everything in No. America, including Moose, and gobs of elk with a Pete George longbow and 400 gr. arrows and Hunter's Heads.  He always said he shot completely through almost everything.  That's light tackle by todays 'standards', but back then everyone looked at the fellas game tally record, not what the chrono's and test reports said.  Nowadays we put alot of stock in the test reports, sometimes more than the proven track records of hunters over many, many years.  There's alot of fellas shooting dangerous game setups for east coast whitetails.  Why? because it's the latest and greatest?

For some situations it might be the best way to go, but for the majority of American hunters shooting American game, the cedar (lighter weight) arrows and 125 gr heads work wonderfully.

I've shot through both shoulders of many deer, bucks and does, using cedars and 125 to 160 gr heads. Deer shoulders are not an issue most of the time for most shooters and I like to aim there personally.  But one thing I know,  there is a vast majority of hunters out there who do not pull their bow to full draw when drawing on animals, and I think this lack of bow power is one of the main reasons of poor penetration, not light arrows.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by Fletcher:
Lighter weight shafts and arrows with 125 grain broadheads have been killing things just fine for a long time, will continue to do so and are obviously up to the task.  That doesn't mean we can't do better.

I'm sure somewhere there's a guy with a Matthews looking at a longbow thinking the same thing. I always found it odd that while "because it's worked for generations" is apparently not acceptable when it comes to our arrows, it's the gold standard for the weapon that shoots those arrows. Seems a bit of a pot/kettle sort of thing to me.

[JamesKerr]

Probably half the animals I have killed with my longbow have been with good old cedar shafts and either 135 grain Zwickey Deltas or 125 grain Woodsmans. The only reason I went to carbon was for more durability and I don't have time to make them due to college. A well made wood arrow with a 125 grain head has killed more game then any of these extreme foc arrows most are shooting these days. I believe some old guy with a last name of Bear shot and killed quite a few animals with a 125 grain broadhead.

[stickandstring]

All I want is a clean pass through. And have had plenty using 125's.

[DesertDude]

YORNOC, Smokin a CAO Brazila, I enjoyed one tonight. I sure do love this life and how traditional archery has shaped me. Alot of great friends, people I have met, All the different types of bows I have owened. Wow how cool and how blessed I'm am to be a part of it.

I'm Just Remembering when, Then and now.....

Thank you all for being part of it....  

[David Mitchell]

Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
 

Originally posted by Fletcher:
Lighter weight shafts and arrows with 125 grain broadheads have been killing things just fine for a long time, will continue to do so and are obviously up to the task.  That doesn't mean we can't do better.

I'm sure somewhere there's a guy with a Matthews looking at a longbow thinking the same thing. I always found it odd that while "because it's worked for generations" is apparently not acceptable when it comes to our arrows, it's the gold standard for the weapon that shoots those arrows. Seems a bit of a pot/kettle sort of thing to me. [/b]

Bingo, you nailed it Jason.

[far rider]

Wow, I guess I fall into the old school catagory. Cedar with 125 Zwickies here.

[Ben Maher]

I am with Dave Mitchell ... Bingo JRW !

[tarponnut]

Douglas fir and 125 gr Woodsmans for me. I've got a bunch of cedar arrows,too.
Shooting wood just feels better to me, nothing wrong with carbon or aluminum, though.

[Brock]

Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
 

Originally posted by Scarne:

Are you going to push a 3 blade through all that with a 53 pound recurve?  No chance.  You going to do that with 10 GPP set up?  No chance.  Are you going to do that with a non-3:1 BH? Yes, I did it with an DB Ace.  (Today I have SB grizzly's)

 

The ten-pointer on my wall would disagree with you. I shot him in 2002 at the same angle and penetrated the same things as you, with a 53# Chek-Mate Hunter II and a 475-grain arrow tipped with a Wensel Woodsman.

There were two differences though. Your deer weighed 175#, mine was 200#...dressed. Your arrow stopped at the fletching; mine burried in the dirt. [/b]

exactly...friend of mine shot a big black bear with a snuffer broadhead and was not doing FOC or anything...just regular arrow setup.  Blew through until it hit offside upper leg...cracked leg bone even.  That was with a gamegetter alum shaft if not mistaken.  Good arrow flight, sharp broadheads, and proper shot placement are the ticket.....without that no amount of EFOC, FOC, SB, etc is going to make up for a poor shot.

[DesertDude]

amen

[stickbowhntr]

Well I for one find GOOD CEDAR hard to find and getting very expensive if you do...too bad Sweetlands not around anymore!

[Rod in SC]

I killed a bunch of deer with cedar and 125 zwickeys and some with 160 snuffers. Im almost convinced that wood outpenetrates wood. I would be convinced if it werent for all the research to the contrary.  I have killed 3 deer this year with high foc carbon and none of them had impressive penetration. They shoot good and are tough but they just dont penetrate as good as wood for me.
I remember shooting a big doe about 20 years with an old Ventura recurve 60 pound dacron string with a fat 23/64 cedar tipped with a 125 eskimo. The arrow caught the top of the shoulder blade, broke the spine, and then exited about 12 inches thru the offside shoulder blade. She just stiffened up and fell over.
I could tell you a bunch of stories about impressive results with wood arrows. I dont have one good story to tell about carbon  penetration and Ive probably killed 20-30 deer with carbon. Seriously.
Maybe old school is really better!  Dang it! Now Ive got to drag all my wood arrows back out.  8-)

[Overspined]

I've been debating this with myself for some time.  I shoot wood with 200 gr, or wood with 175 gr heads, 2 blade. It places my arrows on the heavier side with 45-50# bows.  Most of my shots are within 15 yds though.  So, why not go heavier for more penetration? Elk and deer.    

The conclusion I came to is for the summer fun shoots where I may shoot 30+ yds, I shoot "target shafts" with 125 gr.  Hunting, I go a bit heavier with the 175 and 200 gr heads.  I figure ill give that another year or two and change if I need to. I shot lots of deer with light and heavy heads.

BROADHEAD SHARPNESS seemed to make the biggest difference in penetration from my personal experience.

[Nate Steen .]

I haven't had penetration problems with wood, even busted bear leg bones in half while bending ribteks after pass throughs with light pine shafts...lightweight wood arrows and moderately heavy 125 gr or so heads are proven performers...

one thing that I appreciate about wood, over carbon or aluminum, that I almost never see anyone talk about...maybe it's taboo or something.....

if you were to perchance miss the vitals on a big game animal and the arrow stays in the animal,  cedar or other lightweight woods have a very good chance of breaking off as the animal runs through the woods, and the resulting wound can heal.  With Carbon's toughness, will it break off?  NO WAY,  it must stay in the animal, moving around inside the flesh, festering, etc until it finally is stressed to the breaking point, or the animal dies of infection.  Not my idea of a humane, hunting method if you realize that we all make poor shots now and then.

[DesertDude]

I just came back in from making more arrows. I sure do love making arrows...