3 fingers under

[rcoulas]

I have just switched to shooting 3 fingers under. I was having problems with consistency and an instructor suggested a few things to help to improve my groups. After trying 3 fingers under I have noticed enough of an improvement to keep shooting this way. I am using a Bear Montana long bow and I have noticed the bow has become louder with the change. I asked at my local archery shop and nobody could offer advice as to why. I was also wondering if placing a second noch on the string below the arrow would help to have a repeatable place to put my top finger without having it tight against the arrow noch? If so should I leave a small gap so it doesn't pinch the arrow tight between the nochs?

[mathews8pt]

Almost every bow that i have had is louder 3 under.  Some more noticable then others, but for me that was always the case.  Be sure to check nocking point if you havent already because it typically changes when shooting 3 under compared to split.  

I usually put a brass nock above the arrow nock, and some serving below it.

[rcoulas]

Should the nocking point be lower or higher with the changed grip? I will put a serving nock below, do you put yours tight against the arrow or leave a little room?

[Rick Richard]

The nocking is typically higher when shooting 3 under.  Also, you want about a 1/16th to 1/8th inch gap or spacing so there won't be any pinching.

[mikebiz]

I shoot my longbows 3-under, but have experimented with split. It's just not comfortable for me.  I have shot 3-under for years and I'm just used to it so I'm sticking with it.  

That said 3-under is certainly louder than split, but I have yet to hear a good answer as to why.  I asked this over on the Howard Hill Bug thread a day or so ago.  I've also researched it quite a bit and can't find a logical answer, but the consensus is that split is usually quieter.    

As for nocking points, I tie two knots out of thread.  I set my bottom knot so that the top of it is at 1/4".  I then tie the upper knot so that it is just snug against the arrow nock.  I have noticed that arrow flight is less consistent if there is some play between the arrow nock and the knots.  

Also I sand my arrow nock throats down so that they lightly grasp the string.  They aren't tight.  I like mine so that a nocked arrow when pointed towards the ground releases from the string with a light tap of the hand.  

I think all of these little tweaks really help with arrow flight consistency.  Good luck and let us know if you figure out why split is quieter.

[normf]

If your  bow isn't tillered for 3 under you need a higher nocking point than for split finger as a rule. I set mine around 5/8 in. and nock the arrow under but yours may differ. I have a Toelke SuperD longbow that is tillered for 3 under and it's as quiet as they get. The noise has to do with the tiller of the bow. 3 under is even and split is positive on 1 limb but i forget which. The higher nocking point helps to make up the difference.

[CedarAddict]

I switched to 3 under and ended up having my longbow retillered for it. The cost was well worth it in my opinion as the bow is now whisper quiet.  A bow that has already been tillered for split will need to have the top limb weakened slightly as 3 under puts more tension on the bottom limb when drawn.  This can be alleviated slightly by raising the nock point  but a properly tillered bow will always be quieter.

[rcoulas]

Thanks for all of the advice. I have tied a second nock point and will try moving the top nock up and see if it quiets the bow. I don't mind a little more noise to gain better accuracy and consistency. I will post my progress.

[fujimo]

i re tillered my main bow, and i find my nocking point a lot closer to 90 degrees now.

[traditional beagle]

Yep, tiller has to have stronger lower limb for 3 under to help eliminate noise. Unless asked for I believe most bows are tillered to accomidate split finger release.

[Al Dean]

Actually I believe the bottom limb needs to be weakend slightly to achieve an even tiller for 3 under.  Also my opinion as to increased noise is that the limbs are bottoming out at different times with 3 under, for lack of any other reason I have heard.

[Matt Green]

Can't explain the extra noise but my bows which are tillered for split are quieter when shot that way. I am a 3 under shooter though. I've talked with a couple of well-known bowyers who contend that most other bowyers "over"tiller and they always tiller even (regardless of shooting style) and that that a 3 under shooter simply needs to adjust the nocking point up to 'correct' the even tiller to account for 3 under. (i respectfully disagree as i've never been able to manage the 'quiet' shooting under with these bows that i can if i shoot split.
mg

[fujimo]

yup al i concur- after much deliberation on the bowyers bench- a bow should be tillered even for three under.

sure would like to hear from a few pro bow makers here.

[Matt Green]

Another thought:  If an adjustment on the nocking point is "all that is needed" wouldn't it almost HAVE to be the width of a finger? - that's how much the hand moves "up" the string when we move from three under to split - right? How wide is the avg finger? - more than a "small" change in my opinion.
good post
mg

[fujimo]

ok so i only had half the story- or so it seems. my osage bow that i currently shoot- shoots really well and quiet- but i think i was lucky- after reading the attached post- this has given me a new perspective for the bows that i am starting right now.
read this!!- really informative
 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=008687

[Art Oneshot]

Even tiller is best for 3 under, but before you go to the trouble of having your bow retillered you might consider raising your brace height in small increments to see if you can eliminate the noise.
My bows all shoot just as quiet three under as with split fingers.

Also, put a bow square on your bow and mark it where you now have your nocking point. Move it up 1/8 and see what effect it has.  You might consider doing a bareshaft test to see if your arrows are porpoising. (nock moving up and down). If so, move the nocking point up or down until it disappears.

Only after you have done the above without it correcting the noise should you consider having the bow retillered.

Do you know how to check tiller?

Art

[Bowwild]

Lots of good information here.  I shoot 3-fingers under and haven't experimented with split because the comfort advantages for me are too great to give up.  Most of my bows are tillered for split-finger because they weren't made for me.

I don't have any complaints with noise after tuning.

Positioning of nocking locators should be completely based upon tune rather than noise abatement. When the nock locator (top one) is in the proper location porpoising is eliminated. This is the easiest thing to correct via paper tuning for me. I usually end up at 5/8" above horizontal.

I use bowstring thread (old bowstrings can be dismantled for material) for both the top and the lower nock locator. A slight gap once the nock is placed between the locators is important, as pointed out above, the more "pinch" (greater "V") in your string at full draw.

Personally, I'd never use a brass nock locator again. I've thrown all my old ones away.

[rcoulas]

Thanks Art for the instruction. I will try adjusting the nock point and bare shaft test. when I find the sweet spot I will adjust the brace height and see if that changes things. The brace height is set at the minimum suggested by the manufacturer. I don't think there is a chance to retiller the bow as it is a fiberglass backed Bear Montana. I appreciate all the input and help, I was getting very frustrated with my lack of accuracy and improvement and hopefully some adjustments and tuning will help. Changing to 3 fingers under has helped a great deal.

[kat]

Originally posted by Al Dean:
Actually I believe the bottom limb needs to be weakend slightly to achieve an even tiller for 3 under.  Also my opinion as to increased noise is that the limbs are bottoming out at different times with 3 under, for lack of any other reason I have heard.

X2

[rcoulas]

I adjusted my nock point for best arrow flight and lengthened the brace height, the bow has quieted down slightly so I'm going to leave it alone. Now I just need to practice. Some days I think I should go back to one of those things with the cams on it but I know one day I will show enough improvement to make the change a happier one. I think it is the fact that it is so challenging that keeps me going.