which skinny carbon for 650gr upfront out of 70# recurve?

[ozy clint]

just wondering what skinny carbon would have enough spine to handle this? i'm making different water buff arrows and they will be bombproof. i'll have a 300gr tuffhead and a custom made steel glue in/on inset adapter. the adapter will be about 3"-4" long depending on tuning and mass weight needed. it will also have a aluminium shaft section for a footing which will extend beyond the rear of the insert.
bear in mind that the insert and footing will shorten the portion of the shaft that is flexible. also the footing may be so long that it reats against the side plate at full draw. both of these factors will help me with dynamic spine.

anyone tried the new easton injexions?

[JRY309]

The stiffest spine skinny carbon I've seen is Easton Dangerous Game FMJ 250,you might look at this one with that much weight upfront.It has a .250 spine and weighs 17.2 GPI and comes with 50-75 gr. inserts I believe.I have some of the new Injexion arrows,nice arrow for the right bow.But they use their Deep Six componets,they use a stainless steel insert with 6/40 threads not the standard 8/32.They only make 100 gr. points and broadheads for it with the 6/40 thread.They use a G-nock without need of a bushing,real skinny shaft.

Ooh, man, I want to see that arrow when you figure it out. It should knock the you-know-what out of a buff!

How are things going with you Clint? I hope good. Life is good over on this ide of the pond but hunting is real slow.

G'day mate,

Bisch

[Manitoba Stickflinger]

Fish arrow?

[Thare1774]

Victory VAPs all day. Been shooting em out of my Abbott and they shoot like lazer beams. Plus you can get the 92 grain steel broadhead adaptor for em and they have a 250 spine. They are the same diameter as the carbon injexions. If you get em make sure you clean the inside of the shaft and the adapter shank and then epoxy the hell out of it. Haven't had one come out yet.

[trad_bowhunter1965]

Originally posted by Manitoba Stickflinger:
Fish arrow?

Buffalo arrow ?

[Benjy]

Clint, I just stared playing with 68 lb @ 29" long bow limbs and working with some arrows. I bought some Carbon Express "Pile Drivers" 450's they are .300 spine and weight 13 grains per inch. Currently I have them at 31" with a 100 grain insert and a 200 grain point. They are 740 grains total arrow weight.

Benjy

[Forrest Halley]

That's a tall order. Try carbontech safaris they're pretty stiff. They're .325 OD though. Let's see it when you get it!

[ozy clint]

thanks guys.
the non standard inserts for the injexions doesn't bother me. i'll be using my own custom made insert adapter.
i'm not sure the FMJ's are what i'm looking for because of the high gr/".
the VAP's sound like they are worth looking at too.
thanks again

bisch- things are going good. hope it's likewise for you.

[hybridbow hunter]

Gold Tip kinetic 200 Is actually  one of the stiffest on the market (140-145#) They come in 9/32 diam. and HIT insert are ok with it. I shoot them out of 66# or so at 31,5", full lenght and 425 gr up front and 825 gr total arrow.
If you get them in .006" staightness they are not expensive.
You could go around 500 gr up front with a 31" shaft and building out the side plate
These are the ultimate shaft for building an EFOC arrow for the big game

[ozy clint]

ok guys i've been looking at the VAP's and the injexions and i think they will be too skinny for my application.
the ID is .166"! i think i want the insert adapter to be a larger diameter than this since the broadhead 'hinges' on that.
plus the insert would have to be over 6" long to get the weight i want.

i'm thinking the GT kinetic or axis shafts now.

structural integrity is more important to me than shaft 'skinnyness' in this situation.

do you think the axis shafts in .300" spine would be stiff enough considering that there will be about 4" of insert which will make that portion inflexible?

[stalkin4elk]

GT Entrada UL,or 7595(both 5/16 insert),and 300 FMJ(h.i.t.) all tune for me at 29" draw with only 400 grains total up front and they are all almost too short at this length. One LB is 78@29 and another is 62@29 with different degrees of sidecut. This is simply reference for how seriously stiff you may need, and the long insert planned may prove interesting with regard to spine.
I'll be watching this one with interest.
Good luck and Buffs beware!

[Fanto]

Arrow dynamics hammerhead is a  .175 spine and is front weighted already. 500gr shaft i believe. its not skinny.

The other option is to go to the gold tip .200 spine and use an internal footing made of Oak dowel, . i have been installing them in 5575s by drilling a hole in the end of the dowel, filling it with super glue, then feeding it up the shaft which i point toward the sky. i push it almost to til it hits the insert (using another dowel) then lay the arrow on its side so the glue spills out. quickly then push the dowel as far as it will go.  

Clint I found that from my 60lb recurve cut to centre, drawn to 28, 5575s trads can only handle 220 up front without footing, before showing weak.  trad 7595s can handle 325. the 7595s are noticeably stronger however. I glanced a tree with one this morning, actually got a kill zone deflection! anyway, i tested the shaft , no creaking, perfect still. I'm sure a 5575 would be in the

Dr. Ashby uses internal footings. he found it prevents arrow breakage from hitting heavy bone, and increases spine to the point he was making 1000gr UFOC arrows and had to go down to 65-80 shafts because the Grizzly safaris were showing stiff from his 95b bow

cheers

[amar911]

The GT Kinetic 200 might be somewhat too stiff for your setup. The 300 may be a better choice, but only by shooting both will you know for sure. Patrick Kelly has been shooting the 200s, but he shoots quite a bit heavier poundage bow than yours. I shot some of his arrows out of my 70 pound Super Shrew, and they were too stiff with my 29.5" draw, although he probably had a little less point weight on his arrows than what you are suggesting. If I were you, I would contact Patrick and get his thoughts, or maybe he will hop on this thread himself and tell you what he thinks.

Allan

[Thare1774]

If you're looking for a bulletproof shaft with an axis diameter you can't beat Easton FMJ's. Very strong arrow that will hold up well with that heavy of a front end. 300 spine would prolly work nicely.

[ozy clint]

ok i've had an idea......
i've have found that a 2020 will foot an axis 340 and a 2216 will foot a 2020. both shafts that i already have.
will the 2020 fit an axis 300 if i need that spine?

i've been thinking that i don't really gain much strength if the shank of my custom glue on/in adapter has the same diameter shank as a standard broadhead adapter, since that is the diameter that goes inside an axis shaft. the two weak points IMO are the back of the insert and the back of the adapter where the taper steps down to the shank.

my idea is to machine an adapter that has the taper to accept the broadhead, then step it down to a straight shank to suit the ID of the 2020 then step it down again to the ID of the axis.
the lengths of the straight sections of shank i have yet to work out, since this will affect total mass.
so the 2020 sleeves the end of the axis and adapter and sits hard up against the back of the taper. this will be at a guess about 5-6" long. then i can sleeve this again with the 2216 which will also be hard up against the back of the taper. the 2216 might be about 2.5-3" long. this way the shank off the back of the taper will be the largest diameter possible and the end of the axis shaft will be double footed. i'm planning on having the arrows balance point somewhere within the 2020 footing.
like i said this arrow will be bomb proof.
never again will i make a perfect shoot on a buffalo only to lose it because the arrow broke behind the insert on a rib. amazing how you can have great success with an arrow setup including a scapula hit then have it fail on a broadside rib hit.

[stalkin4elk]

I would rec. against the FMJs since I can repeatedly break/bend them behind the inserts with a 45 degree bounce off of frozen ground or pine boards. Sounds like the problem you already have experienced. FMJs also mushroom easily with solid hits w/o footings. I have quite using them and found the GTs to be more durable w/o footings. Would definately try all carbon axis shafts with footings though. Just my experience as I know many have success with FMJs.

[ozzyshane]

Clint that sounds good you may need to make the 2020 longer to get the spine you need

how far out from centre have you built the riser out

i only use 55@29 and have to use 2219 with 200 at 30 long up front and have the riser about centre then a bear wether rest

At 70 and your draw it will be hard to get a lot of FOC with out a long footing

To get a heavy BH ad i use 300gr feild points and grind them down in a drill works great and cheap
THnaks Shane

[Fanto]

Clint,

i responded to another post re: internal timber footing.

if you use a longer solid internal, or sleeve over external footing, you will break arrows immediately behind whatever footing you have.

Ed Ashby invented the idea of a semi-rigid, not glued in place internal footing. when the arrow is trapped by muscle, and the tip hits bone, the front 1/4 or so of the arrow needs to be stiffened but fade back to the same stiffness as the remainder of the arrow to dissipate the energy of such an impact.

Try an internal dowel footing, you'll solve the strength and spine problems in one go.

[ozy clint]

i believe if the footing goes back past the balance point of the arrow then breakage at the end of the footing should be a non issue. since the center of gravity of the arrow has no leverage on that point. what i mean is the further away from the balance point (the closer to the front) the weak spot is the more likely it could break there since the center of gravity has more leverage against it.