shoulder penatration

[Grizzbear]

Just wondering if anyone has a secret arrow recipie for penetrating mature whitetail shoulders. hit my dream buck in the shouldera a week ago and he was not phased. got 3 " of penetration and he was right back at it rounding up his 12 for 15 minutes later. used a 30" gt expHunter with 100 grain insert and a 125 gr head out of a grizzly 60lber . is this arrow a good weight or should it be heavier? not that I should have hit him there anyways.

[Stumpkiller]

460 grain Douglas fir shaft cut to 31-3/4", 130 gr Stos broadhead nipped to a chisel tip and file sharpened, 56 to 59# of recurve push and it comes out the hide on the opposite side of a whitetail even with a scapula hit going in.

[Orion]

Your arrow is probably in the 510-520 grain range.  Not light, but not exactly heavy either.  It's very tough to break through the shoulder/scapula on a big deer, say 200#  or more live weight. Success is a little higher with fawns and 1 1/2-year old deer that weigh from 60 to 120 pounds. Their scapulas are neither large nor very hard.  

A heavier arrow  attained by more weight forward might help, but would still be doubtful.  Of course a two blade head has a better chance of making it through bone than a three- or 4-blade, which tend to jam up very quickly.  In short, it's just a bad place to hit a deer, or any other critter for that matter.

[Grizzbear]

He was pry 270 lbr we have some big farm country giants. 2"back and I wouldn't be askin

[Grizzbear]

Stump killer. where do you obtain your Douglas fir shafts?

[Stumpkiller]

Braveheart Archery.  I go one step further and taper them full-length from 23/64" at the BH shoulder to 5/16" at the nock.  Really aids penetration.  Also makes them recover faster and fly better.


I do the same with cedar shafts and get full penbetration with 45# bows.

[Matthew Bolton]

I can't speak for a big deer but I shot a doe last year in the point of the shoulder and my broadhead poked out behind the shoulder. Using a 580 grain traditional only shaft with a woodsman up front out of a 58lb zipper longbow.

[YORNOC]

Do you reach full draw when shooting?
 I only ask this because a friend of ours came down from Maine to hunt local whitetails years ago. He shot a 60# Chastain Wapiti.
At the target butt he drew back easily enough and released instantly when he hit anchor. All looked good.
In a ground blind, I was with him and watched him take a shot at a doe, and he released when his hand was 6 inches from his face. Never made it to full draw. When I commented on it, he assured me he reached full draw, but I was a foot from him. Not even close.
So a year later we went on a hog hunt, same scenario. Fine at the target, short draw on game,
terrible penetration. He got mad at me when I told him he let go 6" in front of his face again, but this time 4 other guys saw it.

So just saying, look at all possible reasons, not just arrow weight.
Sounds like quite a bruiser of a buck!!

[The Night Stalker]

There is a video somewhere by Dr Ed. I think it was done at Kalamazoo last year. Alot of great information and review. Check youtube

[mcgroundstalker]

I'd like you fellas to think outa the box for a minute... When you shoot an arrow at a cardboard target it goes right through... Now have that same target moving, like a flyin' disk, and it will stop your arrow every time!

I think a deer shoulder might be a bit tougher than cardboard... And Moving?... Get the picture?    

... mike ...

[Orion]

Agreed, mc.  Movement on the deer's part as the arrow hits can drastically reduce penetration. And most times, a deer is moving, coiling to get the muscles contracted to make the first jump, at the sight or sound of the bow going off.

[overbo]

Sorry about your lost,
Best thing for penetration is confidence in equiptment,and shooting ability.Hitting bone w/ any archery equiptment can give the same results.
If you have confidence w/ what you are shooting now?Get out there after them but if you question your equiptment?Those demans can crawl into your head at crunch time and that's not a good thing.

[wixwood]

60# spine 11/32 cedar shaft footed w/ cocobola raw weight about 450. Cut to 29" and tapered last 10" 160 grain L Grizzly (matches fletch). Overall weight finished right at 600, spine 57# shoots through a 55# Herman like a dart and put down a cow moose this fall. Not  a pass through but both lungs and done. Same set up on Texas pigs; 1 double lung and done another I shot a little higher (59# Horne bow) and broke it's spine.
And yes, I have had the short draw in the heat of the moment problem in the past. I just had to be aware of it and work, work, work, through it.

[Grizzbear]

Appreciate the responses. I am sure it is a combination of all these things. And yes he was a Bruiser jumbo Daddy.

[Mint]

Depends on where you hit the scapula too. If you hit the ridge going down the middle forget about getting through. if you hit closer to the edge, no problem.

[Bobaru]

Grizzbear:

From all I've seen and read, the "secret forumula for shoulder penetration" in Whitetails is to miss the shoulder.  

I'm not sure a heavy arrow is the solution, or a light arrow.  For all the people who have shot thru the shoulder with a heavy arrow successfully and therefore recommend it, you should ask them if they have experience with a light arrow.  The opposite is also true.

I shot a 200 # bear with a 58# bow last year and a light arrow.  It went thru the shoulder blade and completely thru the chest and both lungs. And I recovered him after 60 years.  Do I think that's a secret formula?  No.  Do I think heavy arrows are a secret formula?  No.  Do I think there is more penetration with one arrow versus the other arrow with the same 58# bow. Generally Yes.  

Best bet, if you want some good information on the subject is to set up tests for yourself.  

You should know that amoung traditional bowhunters there is a cultural predisposition toward heavier arrows.  That's okay so long as you realize that.  But, if you're looking for good information, you will need to set up your own tests to satisfy your ownself.

[Bobaru]

I meant to write I recovered him after 60 yards, not 60 years....  

[BCWV]

I was pretty impressed with your 60 year, stay after it, attitude for a bit! That would be a  long, tough tracking job  

[Overspined]

Yep, just hit the wrong place and most arrows stop.  That scapula ridge is tough.  Use the Ashby formula, or as close as you can get, and that's about as much proof for as good as you can get.

[amar911]

I was thinking you were the most dedicated hunter I had ever heard of when I read that you followed up an animal for 60 years before you found him! I usually give up after a day or two.   :D  

Allan