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Author Topic: Spike buck?, seeking comments  (Read 286 times)

Offline goldflinger

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Spike buck?, seeking comments
« on: November 27, 2012, 01:28:00 PM »
Ok Guys and Gals, I am wanting to get the groups opinions on whether spike bucks will ever grow a good pair or antlers. I have read in the past, books where the writer said that spikes will always be spikes and they should be harvested as spikes. I was also recently reading Gene's Wensel's book, when he wrote about a melanistic spike and he later commented that it could have grown to be a 140" class deer.
So, which is it, or does it depend on age and nutrition? We try to target does for our meat needs, but I wonder if we should be taking spikes as well, or are they just young deer who could develop a nice set of antlers in future years? Thoughts!
Morrison Shawnee, Longbow Limbs- 47.5# @ 28 1/2", 45.5# @ 28 1/2"
Toelke Whip- 52# @ 28 1/2"
Damon Howatt Hunter- 45# @ 28"

Offline vermonster13

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 01:32:00 PM »
Spike means nothing long term. Plenty of studies have proved that.
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Offline Arwin

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 01:34:00 PM »
Genetics, age and nutrition.

 I have seen 2.5 yr old spikes that were trophies to me, they looked super cool.  I guess it all depends on what you desire.

 My guess is that a buck sporting spikes after a couple years, likely has undesirable genes compared to a young 1.5yr old sporting a decent rack.
Just one more step please!

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Offline rolltidehunter

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 01:35:00 PM »
Spikes are yearling deer no more than 1 1/2 years old.

yes they will grow bigger racks with age.

the assumption that a spike will always be spike is old school. who ever came up with that theory a long time ago obviously never studied deer.

proof is that ever spike killed weights 100 or less give or take a little. the reason why is because it is a baby. no one ever kills a 250lb mature  4-5 year old spike. unless the deer has had a injury to off set antler growth.

nothing wrong with shooting a spik though

Offline goldflinger

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 01:56:00 PM »
The Spike Theory

The myth that a spike will always be a spike has been put to rest long ago, but there are still hunters who believe that bucks that wear spikes as their first set of antlers are inferior and will never grow a big rack. Thus, they willingly shoot every spike they see in an effort to "improve" the bucks that remain. In some ways, taking spikes out of the herd can help the remaining bucks grow bigger, says DeYoung, and researchers have determined that yearlings with four or more points do tend to grow larger antlers later in life than those bucks that only carry spikes as yearlings. In fact, a study conducted between 1998 and 2007 followed bucks as they aged and found that only a small fraction of yearlings that carried spikes - 3 percent - grew antlers that scored higher than 150 B&C points after they reached 5 ½ years or older. On the other hand, 33 percent of yearlings that had at least four points scored 150 or higher. Further, only 8 percent of bucks that had eight or fewer points at 3 ½ years of age grew antlers larger than 150 B&C later in life, while 37 percent of 3 ½-year-old bucks with nine or more points ended up growing antlers over 150. But again, all of that data is moot if you don't know the age of the bucks you are looking at. So do you shoot that small 8-pointer standing in front of you? Depends.

"Taking out some bucks that meet any standard you place on them automatically leaves more food for those bucks that remain. However, you will achieve the same general results by removing antlerless deer," explains DeYoung. "Some studies have shown that bucks have somewhat different dietary requirements and intake than does, but it's probably not that big of a difference to have any management implications for most hunters." Small antlers on a yearling buck might be the result of something as benign as a poor mast crop the previous fall. DeYoung says the health of a fawn is usually determined not only by the forage directly available to that young buck, but also by the forage available to its mother. When fawns are still nursing, their body mass is determined by the health of their mother. An underfed fawn this season might ultimately grow healthier in subsequent years and carry bigger antlers.

A high number of spike-antlered bucks could also be the result of what DeYoung calls stunting, which happens when too many deer occupy too little habitat. It's similar to a pond filled with bluegills. When there isn't enough food to adequately feed all the fish, they continue to breed but they simply stop growing because they aren't getting proper nutrition. It's fairly easy to tell if a pond has too many bluegills, but it can take hour upon hour of careful observation and record-keeping to determine if your land is above its carrying capacity for deer. If you do have more whitetails than you should, DeYoung says it's far better to simply knock down the deer herd to a level at which there is more food available to fewer animals by shooting more does and leaving more bucks, even if they are spikes.
Morrison Shawnee, Longbow Limbs- 47.5# @ 28 1/2", 45.5# @ 28 1/2"
Toelke Whip- 52# @ 28 1/2"
Damon Howatt Hunter- 45# @ 28"

Offline BigBucksnTrucks

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 02:16:00 PM »
I never really thought about it since where I hunt in PA spikes cannot be harvested.  A buck must have at least 3 points on one side.  There seems to be a lot of debate about this, I would think the best thing would be to let them go, maybe in a few years they will yield a trophy rack.   Either way, I won't even give them a second look.

Offline Cato

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 02:51:00 PM »
Goldflinger pretty much sums it up.  Some managed ranches shoot spikes because a low percentage make good horns.  Some kill all eight points because of their limited ability to score high at maturity, and because they are able to manage for older class 10 points.  None of this is personal experience for me, just what I have read, so take it with a grain of salt.  :)
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Offline Pat B.

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 03:25:00 PM »
I know of one south Texas ranch whose owners raise deer, in captivity.  They have kept the shed horns off of many of the bucks they have raised, including some that sported spikes as 1 1/2 year olds..  Their conslusion is that most of their spikes have been inferior bucks as they aged.

I have the privilage of seeing lots of deer every year and get to see many 1 1/2 year old bucks that have a 6 or 8 point rack. I'm going to bet that they grow into better bucks as they mature as opposed to a spike at the same age.

Even so I have mixed emotions on the issue and believe that each place or area may be unique and treated differently..

Offline Cyclic-Rivers

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »
Spikers grow into bigger bucks.

If you have too many deer and only see spike bucks as was with the property where I used to hunt, I was told by a biologist to shoot the 1 1/2 year old spikes and leave the yearling spikes.
Relax,

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Offline wckid2

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 07:20:00 PM »
I believe I read a story one time about the 30-30 buck and he started out as a spike. I cant remember for sure but thank that is what I read.

Online 4 point

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 07:52:00 PM »
You can't tell anything about what a buck will be till he's at least a 3 year old. Then most of the ones with good genetics get shot at that age and the poor genetics bucks go on to breed. The only way a spike should be shot is if he's 2 or 3 years old. In our area the public ground that gets a lot of hunting pressure has a lot of mature 3x3s. Shooting young bucks with the best genetics has the greatest effect on the size of antlers in a area.

Online 4 point

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 07:58:00 PM »
Also most spike bucks are late fawns from the year before. Most likely from a fawn doe.

Offline ti-guy

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 07:59:00 PM »
Spikes in here are 1 1/2 year,means young deer that will grow bigger,in general,HERE,they become small 8 points at 3 1/2 year.In the west provinces they born as 8 points already   :readit:      :laughing:
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Offline Lost Arra

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 08:09:00 PM »
"If you fellas don't shoot me while I'm young and stupid and I'll show you some antlers in a few years......if you can find me!"

 

Offline Sam McMichael

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 09:42:00 PM »
I don't cull the spikes, and I do believe that they will grow good racks.
Sam

Offline Lefty

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 10:25:00 PM »
Have a friend that raised deer and one of his largest deer every, started out as a spike.  I am not against shooting one if the freezer is empty, but I wouldn't kill em' just to cull them either.

Offline SheltonCreeker

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2012, 01:59:00 AM »
I find the word cull thrown around a lot. I have small parcel of land that I hunt exclusively. 200 acres or less. I don't cull anything. I let all young bucks walk. I don't figure I have enough property to be culling deer. Too many gun hunters that hunt around me. I figure the more bucks that I let walk the more there is a chance some of them will make it to mautrity. As someone stated most 3 1\\2 year old deer get shot where I hunt too. Its hard to shoot deer thinking I'm doing the herd a favor when 3 yards over the property line awaits a firing squad just looking to satisfy a blood lust. So I say let them walk. Or at least I'm saying I let them walk. If you hunt a big parcel of land and have the opportunity to manage a peice of property then maybe you could consider it. Just my 2 cents.
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Online Steelhead

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 03:20:00 AM »
A spike can definatly turn into a nice buck and probably will if he gets old enough.Someone mentioned some spikes are late born fawns and thats true as they dont have as much time to grow thier 1st rack.
They may not turn into booners.But thats true with most bucks.If allowed to grow and reach 4.5 years they will be more more than adequate for most of us to be very very happy with if we are lucky enough to harvest them.
I prefer a scoring system based on neck and hoof size anyway.So I mostly look at those body parts when I assess the future potential of a buck.

Offline Bowwild

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 07:16:00 AM »
Lots of accurate, current information Goldfinger.

I am thankful to do most of my hunting in a one buck/year state. Therefore I don't usually shoot bucks unless they are mature.  There have been occasions where I've killed a buck because of special circumstances, usually involving something that was really cool about the hunt.

Sometimes Spikes are a result of a fawn being late born that just hasn't caught up by age 1.5. Energy goes first into building a healthy (competitive) body and then into antler growth. Theory goes that the primary reason for antlers is to "signal" to the Doe which bucks are the better mates.  A bigger rack could forebear greater advantage for sired fawns.  

I've seen the research on tightly controlled enclosures showing antler development over time.  It is amazing how genetics, habitat, and age can come together to produce a beautiful rack. Of course usually, age is the most important factor.

I put little faith in the ability to recognize bucks from year to year in the wild.  Walk into a local taxidermy shop and see 60-100 racks hanging. It is astonishing to see how very similar racks from the save area are.  I'd put more faith in such year to year i.d. if there is a unique body characteristic involving a persistent injury.

I hear all the time about people watching a buck for 3-5 years.....  I once regretted not putting a .50 caliber MZZL hole in the ear cartilage of a 12-point that I didn't want to kill with a gun at 15 yards.  At least with that hole I might have known if I ever saw the deer again during bow season. (I didn't want the biggest deer of my life to come by gun.)

I trust those who use the world "cull" are as thrilled as much about deer as I am.  However, I don't use the word because it usually infers a regard for something that is less than appreciative.

Online LookMomNoSights

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Re: Spike buck?, seeking comments
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2012, 08:41:00 AM »
Ive never heard of this "spike theory"!  I've harvested a few spikes here in New England over the years and I knew they were younger dear....and also always took for granted that such a deer would in fact grow a better rack with age....even though we don't get the number of truly awesome racks like they do in other parts of the country.  Not sure I buy into the idea that the 125 lb. spike  you see today,  will A. be a 200 spike 2 years later OR B. never get heavier than 130 and remain a spike.  This all has nothing to do with the ancient old master of the woods buck who's rack comes back as just 2 long spikes..........  :dunno:

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