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Author Topic: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...  (Read 1173 times)

Online Orion

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 04:38:00 PM »
Interesting.  Just spined a half-dozen new Easton Axis N-fused .400s.  On my spine tester (2#@26 inches) they all spine 80 pounds or a little better -- 3 at 80#, 2@82# and one about 84#.  My spine tester doesn't provide actual deflection.  The measurement is converted to poundage on the scale.  .400 is supposed to be 65#; 80# is about .325 deflection (2#@26 inches).  

Maybe my spine tester is off.  However, I've checked it against vendor supplied shafts many, many times over the years.  Anybody else measure actual deflection on Axis .400s?

Online Orion

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 04:42:00 PM »
Oops.  Just checked a chart that shows the deflection using 1.94#@28 inches, which what Easton uses.  Using that system, a deflection of .39 is 80#.  Close enough.  

Obviously, we get very close to the same poundage result, but the deflection related to that poundage varies depending on which measuring system one uses.  Looks like to compare apples to apples, we'll always need to state which spine measuring parameters we're using.

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2012, 07:24:00 PM »
If I had a spine tester, I'd use it.

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on the 26" vs. 28" center test... or the ACTUAL spine...

Like speed, it's only a measure... I'd be looking for CONSISTENCY...  I wouldn't care so much what the actual #-age was, but if there were variance among the dozen!

What I was told is that GT and Victory can be off 6-7# over any given dozen! That is going to take a lot of individual tuning to get them to all group together!!

I got in a verbal tussle with some good folks  who touted wood... over carbon due to consistency.

My BAD! Course, I always figured the way they were made and sold, they'd have better control than wood...

One thing I will still say...carbon seems to either be straight or broken... Once you have them individually tuned to your set up...they also seem to last and don't change!

I'll fuss with my gear once to get it right, but I don't care for continued fussing over brace, or arrow straightness... I just want to shoot after all the blood -letting testing is done!   :rolleyes:    :saywhat:
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Offline njloco

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2012, 09:46:00 PM »
I have never spine tested and have never tuned my arrows    :eek:  
but have shot through paper, maybe I'm lucky but it's always  been a bullet hole. When I switched from GT3555 to GT1535 My friends thought I was crazy, until they saw me shoot, then many of them switched to GT1535's because we all shoot about the same weight bows.

I just received a new batch of GT1535's in right wing ( I always shoot left wing)  and have been shooting GT3555's out of a recurve I recently purchased, now even though they shoot great, I think the 1535's will shoot just as good but a little faster.

By the way, GREAT POST !
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Offline kbetts

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2012, 10:35:00 PM »
Most informative post I've read in a long time.  I'm already squirreling away money for a spine tester.  IMO this takes out the biggest variable in consistent shooting.
"The overhead view is of me in a maze...you see what I'm hunting a few steps away."  Phish

Offline mrjsl

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2012, 10:42:00 PM »
I fletch and wrap all my arrows in different color schemes so that no two are alike - so I can tell which ones are misbehaving. Plus it's camo that way.

Old orangey (orange wrap, two orange and a barred feather) has killed a hog and a rattlesnake this year, so it's my first string. Had to refletch it the other day.

That's science!

Offline KyRidgeRunner

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2012, 02:06:00 AM »
I've been running into some of these issues as well. A few good arrows and then the few that refuse to go to the same spot!  :banghead:

Online cacciatore

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2012, 03:22:00 AM »
I discovered that long time ago ,that carbon is not really consistent in spine,like AL.So if you want to have a good matching set you have to spine test every single shaft and make groups that can be set a little differently,like lenght and point weight.
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2012, 06:02:00 AM »
all arrows have both static and dynamic spine values.

the bugaboo is with carbon arrow shafting, and this variation of static and dynamic spine values is far less with wood and aluminum arrow shafts.

almost all carbon arrows are listed with static spine values that are far too heavy in dynamic spine for a trad bow.  this is the failure of the carbon arrow industry to take into account how a trad bow engine operates.

what matters most is NOT the static value, it's the DYNAMIC value that decides what best matches a particular length for a particular bow for a particular archer with a particular string.  each of these criteria all all encompassing, meaning that in the case of the bow, it's the type of bow, it's stored weight at a particular draw length, and how far the shaft lies from centershot on the arrow rest.
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Offline Rick Richard

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2012, 06:31:00 AM »
Great post!  And what I have learned over the past months with carbons is how centershot places such a great role when considering spine type. Also, how little of shaft length removal can affect arrow flight...it only takes a small amount to make a change.

Offline KentuckyTJ

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2012, 08:14:00 AM »
Good thread.

Alot has to do with how our trad bow shelves are cut. My cut past center shelves shoot a stiffer spine very well as they don't have to flex around the riser during the shot.
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Offline LCH

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2012, 08:46:00 AM »
A couple of things I have learned shooting carbons over the years is:
1. Start out with them full length and work your way down.(when trying something new).
2. When adding weight behind the insert it doesn't have as much effect as adding it to tip weight.
3. Adding weight tubes don't work well for me.
4. The same spine in small diameter arrows will shoot different than regular size carbon arrows like gold tip. (they seem more forgiving).
5. A 1/4" in arrow length can make a big difference in how it shoots.

I have shot carbons for years I prefer them to other shafting especially for hunting. If I couldn't shoot them anymore I would shoot wood shafts.
Just what I have learned.
LCH

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2012, 09:19:00 AM »
Lee,

For years I've tried to preach the same thing about riser cut as a huge influence on spine.

Years ago, I was testing some new mfg arrows for a friend and made up a 3fletch/3 bare shaft test kit.

Took them to a shoot. All of us who shot around 48-50# bows had risers cut 3/16 past center .  They shot weak for us.  All had the same draw length, btw.

Another buddy walks up with an IBO legal long bow...cut 1/8 SHY of center. Same draw length.

His bow, BTW, was 65# compared to our 48-50# bows!

They shot STIFF for him and 2 others with risers cut shy of center!

And yet, his bow and the others that shot stiff were all in mid 60# range!  At least 15# more draw weight than those of us with weak results but hard center cut risers!

Go figure! Simple stick bows have a host of very subtle nuances that make huge impacts on tuning...
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2012, 09:25:00 AM »
Back in the 60's and 70's I always bareshafted my target tackle (freestyle fingers, recurves, X7's, heavy points and spin wings), and I still believe this is still the correct way to go for a target bow.

I carried the bareshaft process forward with my barebow hunting tackle and found too many occasions when well tuned bareshafts reacted quite differently when fletched. I found it best for me to just tune the fletched arrow to the bow and my shooting style. Target archery and bowhunting have little in common - that's just my observation.

I have no hunting arrow flight issues (using two different types of carbons, Beman's and AD's), they fly straight and true and fast with field points, judos or broadheads. The GPP and fletch cut and FOC and point types don't matter as much as gets touted.  I can make most any fletched arrow work well out of my D or r/d longbows with a bit of tweaking here and there at best.  

As I was careful to say, "... for me" - I'd never knock what works for others.


There are a *LOT* of factors that will determine what arrow type and spine will work best with what bow and what archer - the archer plays a key role, as your form, physique and aiming method can radically alter the arrow spex.

IMO, some of my opinions on matching arrows to bows and archers ...

(soapbox on)

the closer the arrow plate is to the center of the riser, the far less that spine matters, if at all.

carbon arrows have a FAR greater range of dynamic spine than static spine, which is the reason all carbon manufacturers list a very broad range of static spine for one shaft type and spine.  dynamic spine is most important.

if you're a bowhunter, spine will matter less that for a target archer, because target archers need to remove as many variables as possible and always shoot with the same upright stance and vertical bow.  we don't.  not ever.

carbons LOVE to be pushed hard.  this means that you want to start off with a weak spined carbon shaft.  at my draw length and arrow length, and with the 250-350 grains up front that i use, the beman charts tell me i should be shooting a 340, instead a 500 fits the bill for me best.  that's two spine ranges lower than recommended.  partly due to listing static spine, which for carbons is plain dumb.

figure to shoot around 10gpp.  this means an efficient transfer of energy from the limbs, through the string, to the arrow, and the arrow will have enuf mass weight to absorb it all.  not so good things happen when going much under 9gpp.  in fact bumping up higher will yield more benefits, such as less noise on release and more release and inflight bow/arrow "stability".

how you aim plays a critical part of how the arrow will fly, regardless of the arrow's spine.  yes.  read that again.  if you learn to aim the arrow (as all old time longbow archers did), and not the bow, spine is nearly meaningless.  this is one reason why howard hill could pick an arrow from the quivers of 10 different archers and put all of them in the bull at 30 yards.  aiming the arrow was greatly discussed by jim ploen (21st century bows, and a champion target archer and accomplished hunter) in articles he wrote for instinctive archer.

(soapbox off)
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Offline Will Cocke 2

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2012, 11:40:00 AM »
Has anyone with a spine tester ever done any testing On brands such as

Goldtip Trads
Carbon Express Herritage
beman ics hunter
easton axis
Traditional Only

To see which brand is the most consistent from lot to lot or just in a dozen arrows.

Offline Ray Lyon

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2012, 11:45:00 AM »
Rob's got it pretty much nailed and saved me a bunch of typing.  :thumbsup:
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Offline Flying Dutchman

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2012, 01:31:00 PM »
However, I still remember testing 35-55's for my 38lbs longbow, a long time ago. No matter what I tried, they would not fly as they should. In the end I took some 1535's and ended up with a 145 grains front load to make them fly right.
So I think spine value can be important, if you are way off, that arrow just won't fly as it should.
I think if you will go above or under 10 lbs, you will notice it. At least, that's my experience. But I think distance plays a role too. When I shoot at 15 yards, I can shoot every arrow, every spine, every weight, every FOC. When I shoot at 50 yards, the story becomes quite different...
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Offline Roddo

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Re: The deceptive spine values of carbon shafts...
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 08:31:00 PM »
I have a spine tester and have spined FMJs and the MFs classic Beman 400s. The Dozen sets I have spined have all spined the same. on my spine tester set at 28in, not 26 with a 2 lb weight spined 425 or 2216 alumimun..I have found these to be as close as aluminum shafts.

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