Warranty for less then 8 GPP ?????

[Flying Dutchman]

Since I don't want to hijack a topic, I start a new one. A big German archery supplier gives a 30 years warranty on his bows, no matter what weight of the arrow you shot.
Some of you were reacting and talking about 5 GPP.

I ask you: it will be tuff to even get under the 8GPP! Woodies you can forget; they are from 450 grains up to higher in weight. For a heigher drawweight you will need a stiffer spine, so the weight of the arrow goes up. So you will always stay around the 8 GPP automatically. Most European archers shoot 50lbs as max. So you will always be safe with wooden arrows.

Maybe you can push the limits for carbon, but normally you will end around the 8 as minimum, if you try hard...

For more questions you can PM me.

[Rob DiStefano]

it's just a marketing ploy, plain and simple.  pure nonsense hype.  

and you're right - who's going to shoot an arrow much less than 8gpp, let alone 6 or 5 or 4 gpp?  that's insane and only flight archers are shooting those kinda arrow weights.

their (bearpaw) bow designs, materials and crafting are no different from hundreds of other stickbows available today.  their bows will blow up as easily as any others, and if not the bow limbs shattering it will be the arrows.  

it's not at all hard to construct a carbon arrow (not a hunting arrow!) that's in the 300 grain range and 28" long.  fire that out of your 50# stick bow and hear/see what happens.    

none of this has anything to do with trad bowhunting, i'll keep this thread open for a bit and let's see how fast it'll get closed up.        :D

[Walt Francis]

Sorry folks, a lot of people used to and still do use arrows less than 8 grains per pound successfully.  I hunted for several years with a 68# Marriah using the old Beeman 2300 & 2400 that weighed in at 325 grains (just went into the archery room and weighed one).  I used 125 grain Thunderheads, total weight 450 grains, which equates to 6.62 grains pound of bow weight.  With that setup the arrow passed through around 75% of the deer and one of two elk.  My brother was using 85 grain Thunderheads in the same arrows from his seventy two pound Schafer with similar results; that's 5.7/pound of draw weight.  The Marriah was shooting fine when I traded it eight years back and so was the Schafer when brother Bob sold it.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Walt Francis:
Sorry folks, a lot of people used to and still do use arrows less than 8 grains per pound successfully.  I hunted for several years with a 68# Marriah using the old Beeman 2300 & 2400 that weighed in at 325 grains (just went into the archery room and weighed one).  I used 125 grain Thunderheads, total weight 450 grains, which equates to 6.62 grains pound of bow weight.  With that setup the arrow passed through around 75% of the deer and one of two elk.  My brother was using 85 grain Thunderheads in the same arrows from his seventy two pound Schafer with similar results; that's 5.7/pound of draw weight.  The Marriah was shooting fine when I traded it eight years back and so was the Schafer when brother Bob sold it.

i hear ya walt, and fully understand.  not many guys shooting 7gpp or under.  if ya do, if i did, bearpaw would be the way to go.      

however, if you read the bearpaw warranty, it clearly states that any and all arrows can be shot out of their bows and all will be warranty covered.  4gpp, 3gpp, 2gpp?  yikes!!!!

[Walt Francis]

Rob,
Been a long time since I shot that setup, learned my lesson the hard way.  I put one of those arrows, only tipped with a Magnus I, between the eyes of a mountain lion at three yards and only got about four inches of penetration; he walked away.  Been using around 9-11 grains per pound of draw weight since.

I'm lucky regarding the warranty on the bows I shoot, I only have to look in the mirror to try and press the issue with the bowyer.      

The point I was trying to make is twenty years  back most of us (at least in Montana) were hunting with a lot less than the "8 grain" minimum and all the Montana bowyer's were warranting their product.  I may be miss-remembering, but Dave had Schafer bows for a couple of years before he instituted the 8 grain stipulation on his warranty.

[Nativestranger]

Originally posted by Walt Francis:
Sorry folks, a lot of people used to and still do use arrows less than 8 grains per pound successfully.  I hunted for several years with a 68# Marriah using the old Beeman 2300 & 2400 that weighed in at 325 grains (just went into the archery room and weighed one).  I used 125 grain Thunderheads, total weight 450 grains, which equates to 6.62 grains pound of bow weight.  With that setup the arrow passed through around 75% of the deer and one of two elk.  My brother was using 85 grain Thunderheads in the same arrows from his seventy two pound Schafer with similar results; that's 5.7/pound of draw weight.  The Marriah was shooting fine when I traded it eight years back and so was the Schafer when brother Bob sold it.

Wow. 5.7 GPP is pretty low. Glad to know it nothing happen to that bow. But isn't it becoming too loud for hunting?

[HMlongbow]

I actually had a guy shooting around a 6.7 gpp arrow in my static set up at 47# and it still was very quiet.  I only recommend the 9.0 gpp setup as a warranty issue as studies have suggested.  People have done numerous studies on these glass bows with the gpp and when they stopped blowing up was around the 9.0 gpp and that is I believe the warranties started with that.  Now some do offer the 8.0 gpp warranty but that is with those individual bowyers.  I was told this story by John Girardi of Old Mastercrafters.  He has been around the business for alot of years, so I feel confident in what he has told me.
I have seen glass bows blow up, just crack in the riser and horizontal cracks in the glass, usually the lower limbs mostly.  
Good shooting

[Nativestranger]

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
Since I don't want to hijack a topic, I start a new one. A big German archery supplier gives a 30 years warranty on his bows, no matter what weight of the arrow you shot.
Some of you were reacting and talking about 5 GPP.

I ask you: it will be tuff to even get under the 8GPP! Woodies you can forget; they are from 450 grains up to higher in weight. For a heigher drawweight you will need a stiffer spine, so the weight of the arrow goes up. So you will always stay around the 8 GPP automatically. Most European archers shoot 50lbs as max. So you will always be safe with wooden arrows.

Maybe you can push the limits for carbon, but normally you will end around the 8 as minimum, if you try hard...

For more questions you can PM me.

Interesting topic Ad. I think you are right in saying most arrows tuned properly will be of a reasonable weight. There are some exceptions though. Most commonly those who have a short draw and those who shoot a non centre shot bow. With a short draw you can choose the lightest spine carbon and stiffen it up significantly by cutting it short. Then the GPP goes below 8 quite easily.

       

But comparing a 26" draw to a 31" draw of the same draw weight, there is a waaaay less energy going into damaging the bow. If you take an extreme example I can dry fire my bow at 9" draw length (plucking the string by 1" at 0 GPP) all day without worrying about damaging it. The same GPP but at different draw length clearly isn't the same when it comes to destroying the bow. By this I think Bearpaw must have concluded going by GPP is not a good way to determine amount of abuse to the bow.

[Walt Francis]

The bows were quiet.  We had them tuned to the optimum brace heights, used loose fitting nock's, and beaver balls for string silencers.  In fact my Marriah Thermal was quieter with the 68# limbs then it was with the 47# limbs shooting the weaker spine Beemans, which were within a few grains (5-10) of the others.

[Rob DiStefano]

any attempted "logic" for really low gpp arrows (under 9 or 8) doesn't fly well for the vast majority of trad bowhunters.  we fully understand the benefits and NEED for high gpp arrows.  it's really that simple.  

once again, this is a trad bowhunting forum and not about target or flight archery.

[BOWMARKS]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 
once again, this is a trad bowhunting forum and not about target or flight archery.

X2

[JamesV]

I dissagree............... this IS about bowhunting unless there is some rule I am not aware of about hunting with light arrows. 29" 200 series carbon with a 75 gr. wasp for a total weight of 328 grains out of a 59# recurve is a fantatic hunting set-up. I personally don't have a problem if you hunt with a heavy arrow.

[Nativestranger]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
any attempted "logic" for really low gpp arrows (under 9 or 8) doesn't fly well for the vast majority of trad bowhunters.  we fully understand the benefits and NEED for high gpp arrows.  it's really that simple.  

once again, this is a trad bowhunting forum and not about target or flight archery.

Bowhunting for large game is what you meant and I fully agree. I believe a lighter arrow will kill birds, rabbits, squirrels and frogs as dead as they do from a heavy arrow.

[deadpool]

a warranty that covers your bow for 30 years no matter whats shot of that, I personally don't see whats wrong with that, fire away I say!

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by JamesV:
I dissagree............... this IS about bowhunting unless there is some rule I am not aware of about hunting with light arrows. 29" 200 series carbon with a 75 gr. wasp for a total weight of 328 grains out of a 59# recurve is a fantatic hunting set-up. I personally don't have a problem if you hunt with a heavy arrow.

there's an exception to everything and i'm glad that 5.6gpp arrow works well for you, indeed.  very cool.

however, realistically, i believe you are in the vast minority of trad bowhunters, and messing with light gpp arrows is like playing with a compressed powder rifle reload.  surely can and has been done, but not something everyone should be doing.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by deadpool:
a warranty that covers your bow for 30 years no matter whats shot of that, I personally don't see whats wrong with that, fire away I say!

i think yer missing the whole point.  think about all of this again and put it in the context of your trad bowhunting and your personal safety.

[Sixby]

A thirty year warranty isn't worth the paper its written on folks. No man knows the future a year from now , much less what is going to be in place or not in place in thirty years. Its gargage no matter what the companys intentions are.

God bless you all, Steve

[CurlyMcFletch]

I think you guys have your heads in the sand regarding the light arrows and warranty...many 3d archers that hunt use light arrows and what about the guys of old...Fred Bear himself used the 125gr Bear razorheads and certainly killed a lot of animals and I don't think they were worrying about whether their arrows were too light or not.

It sounds a bit protectionist regarding slamming Bearpaw...they have put their warranty out there and good for them...they obviously have confidence in their product.

I see Kustom King who is one of your bigger sponsors sell a lot of their product including some of their bows...oh that's right...not made in the USA so must not be any good!!

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by CurlyMcFletch:
I think you guys have your heads in the sand regarding the light arrows and warranty...many 3d archers that hunt use light arrows and what about the guys of old...Fred Bear himself used the 125gr Bear razorheads and certainly killed a lot of animals and I don't think they were worrying about whether their arrows were too light or not.

It sounds a bit protectionist regarding slamming Bearpaw...they have put their warranty out there and good for them...they obviously have confidence in their product.

I see Kustom King who is one of your bigger sponsors sell a lot of their product including some of their bows...oh that's right...not made in the USA so must not be any good!!

compounds are *totally* different animals than trad stickbows, and they can and do deal with really low gpps.  this forum is about trad stickbows, leave the wheelbows out.  period.

this isn't about foc and 125 grain heads, it's about the total mass weight of an arrow with respect to the trad bow's holding weight.

no one is saying that bearpaw is producing a bad product.  more power to them with their seemingly unlimited warranty.  

here's what's not so good - their warranty policy is pure hype and a marketing strategy, the vast majority of trad bowhunters are using gpps in the 9 and way above range, heavy arrows penetrate better than light arrows for killing critters, messing with uber light gpps and stickbows is like messing with nitro and someone could get hurt.

your insinuation about a non-usa product is uncalled for and has nothing to do with this matter.

[CurlyMcFletch]

All warranties are a hype and marketing strategy...check out any of the car/truck commercials on t.v. The best part of this is it's transferable...if I am correct Alaska Bowhunting has a similar warranty on the Carbon Nano bow too...a lifetime warranty that is transferable and they shoot light arrows out of their bow. What I am saying is that good for Bearpaw in stepping up...if other bowyers aren't comfortable with providing that warranty, maybe they are not confident in their product...nuff said!!