Gene and Barry Wensel Defend the 2nd Amendment

[Lynch Mob]

I respect Gene & Bary's stand and I'm right there with them.
What's next MAD wanting automobiles outlawed because of drunk drivers.
Maybe... we should look at our own homes and see what they call video games kids are playing, or the violence holloywood has no problem making money off of.
Kidos to all those who made the stand for all us.
Have a nice day

George

[Iron Man2]

How about this for you pznuts..."According to “FBI data”, only 2.6 percent of all murders in the U.S. are committed using a rifle of some kind. In 2011, there were 6,220 homicides with handguns and only 323 with rifles." Look it up.

I will admit that I was reluctant to post this for several reasons: 1. It was suggested to find it your self, nothing about radio people 2. I do not feel we should be debating the stats and figures on the TG 3. The only people instilling "fear" and "paranoia" are Politicians and media outlets alike have injected fear into our society about these “assault weapons,” implying they are the biggest threat to our safety. However, nothing could be further from the truth. 4. The intent of these threads, I think was for us to vent on the TG and a show of support because of the broader picture and the consequences of not protecting our Constitutional rights and Freedoms that are being attacked across the board. 5. Is the government really after “true Assault weapons” (i.e. a M16) or all our guns or all weapons?
6. What I have learned reading these threads on the subject, is that either “you get it or you do not”, and the Membership in TG, and the Adm has been very tolerant and supportive. I want to thank them for that.

nuf Said...My 2 Centavos


JL    

[wapitirod]

Originally posted by pznuts:
OK, someone has to play devil's advocate. I am not a big gun guy, that's why I am on this site. I have a .22 to do a little squirrel hunting but that's about it. So, most of our rights have limitations. The first amendment contains the freedom of speech, but you can't slander people and you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater. Children are citizens of this country, some of them work and pay taxes, but they can't vote. Most of our rights are restricted in some way, they aren't limitless. I don't think the framers of the Constitution had any idea of where firearm technology was going to go, and if they did they might have been a little more clear. I don't agree with the far left but I do think we have to address why our country is so violent. I think something has to be done and I don't think the answer is more guns. Well, that's my two cents.

What you have to look at with the 2nd Amendment is first of all it doesn't say anything about hunting or sports shooting and second is look at what they had to say about the 2nd Amendment which by the way is what gives teeth to all the rest.

Thomas Jefferson stated that the main reason for the people to be armed is so that as a last resort they could fight a tyrannical government.  James Madison said the people should have access to the same arms as the standing army of the day.  Now no one is suggesting we can buy nukes but his point was this.  Should a tyrannical government come to power, similiar to the one we have now.  The people need weapons equal to those of the forces they will need to defeat in order to overthrow the government.  

This is considered radicalism today but it's not, as we keep letting the govt take freedom after freedom away we are coming closer to a socialist dictatorship.  Many think this is an impossibility but it is not and as more people become government dependent it will be easier for this to happen.  Throughout history monarchy's, dictatorship and even some socialist democracy's have used the disarmament of the population in order to einforce their will, the most famous of which is Hitler.

 Another thing I get tired of is people referring to the US as a democracy, it is not, it is a Republic.  The difference between the two in a simplified form is this, a Republic is ruled by a constituion and a democracy is majority rule or mob rule which is what we have now.

 They (our politicians) seem to have forgotten they are restrained and limited by the Constitution and instead do what they feel like because they have a majority.  In recent history both parties have violated the constitution and it's up to the people to set things right.

  The constitution allows for this to happen through diplomacy and elections but when those measures fail they were very clear in that they intended for the people to use force.  They foresaw these problems but what they did not foresee is the narrow minded ignorance, laziness and cowardice that has infecteted this country.

[duncan idaho]

"They foresaw these problems but what they did not foresee is the narrow minded ignorance, laziness and cowardice that has infecteted this country".

This is a good thought, but, I think you should apply it to our politicans, all of them, from the local mayor to the Executive branch. I have spent the last 8 years in Iraq, Afghan, Jordan and other places, and I can tell you that you have no idea the level of incompetence in our government. In IMHO, every person has the right to defend their self and family. Doesnt matter what any law is once you are under attack, remember, laws are only for the honest. In the future, in this country anyway, you will eventually have to decide which is more important, following the law or defending what is your right.

[wapitirod]

First off thank you for your service, it's you and your brothers in arms that are the definite exception to that statement.  You are right, the politicians started losing wars for us first with Korea, they didn't like what McCarthur had to say so they ran him out as a lunatic and managed to lose the war.  Next was Vietnam, Westmoreland wanted 200,000 additional troops to finish of the NVA and VC after the failed Tet offensive, he was relieved of command and replaced with another General who believed in winning their hearts and minds.  Now we have Iraq and Afghanistan where once again we are worrying about winnind their hearts and minds instead of doing what we should of which was let you guys go in burn the country to the ground and get out.  It worked in WWII and that's the last true and decisive victory in a major war we've had. This is a subject which I'm very sensitive about. My family has been fighting for this country since the Revolution and even indians before that and my uncle was killed in Vietnam and thanks to the politicians it was in vain except for his brothers in arms he helped to survive.  He was a LRRP with the 7th Cav "AIR CAV".

Anyways we've drifted way off now but back to the main point which is we must stick together and we must find a way to restore the republic or the loss of the 2nd amendment and our hunting rights we'll be ensured and unfortunately the least of our worries.  Thanks to the Wensel brothers and many, many others we've sent a message to the private sector that we will not tolerate infringement of our rights and now we must follow through against a corrupt and bloated government.

[rascal]

First I would like to thank the individuals, businesses and groups that took a stand and pulled out of this event...it takes guts to stand up for your principles.

Second for the few that have questioned how this all relates to us here at TradGang...

If you are curious how the issue of gun control, the 2nd ammendment, media spin, political usurpation of our rights etc affect everyone here at TG here is just a little selection I found concerning bows and their use in murderous attacks in currrent news.
              December 2, 2012
***Son kills father in bow and arrow attack***

"A community college instructor killed in a classroom murder-suicide in the US was hailed as a hero, with police saying he gave his students time to flee by distracting and fighting off his son after the younger man barged into his computer science class and shot him in the head with a high-powered bow and arrow."

Notice the LABEL "high-powered bow and arrow" makes it seem incredibly sinister doesnt it?...maybe even too powerful to be trusted in the hands of the masses.  Lets face it archery equipment has been used in the military from antiquity throughout today so it can also fall under the umbrella of military arms.

Dont think for a moment the forces that seek to disarm the public will simply stop after getting the arms LABELED as "assault rifles". After all what is an AR15 but a simple semi-automatic centerfire rifle chambered in a military caliber. Why not all current or former military cartridges (trust me the list is huge) or all firearm actions used in the military in the past or present or perhaps all arms used in the military past or present...oops there goes our traditional bows.  The people that want to disarm you would have no qualms going after hunting as a means to further this agenda, after all if you cant hunt legally why would you need a weapon capable of killing large mammals?

There is no level at which the people intent on taking your freedoms will be satisfied, take a moment to pull your head from the sand and look around for all the proof you need. Kindergarten student suspended for a piece of paper torn roughly in the shape of a gun, kindergarten student suspended for making gun shape with hand and saying "POW", kindergarten student suspended for saying they would shoot someone with their "Hello Kitty Bubble toy", recent actions in both the UK and Asia to regulate "large or pointed kitchen knives".  If the current headlines dont convince you we are all in this together then there really is nothing that could convince you.

[Rob DiStefano]

"you either get it, or you don't".

this thread is about the ESOS pa gun show and the reaction of gene and barry, and many many other show vendors, who decided that even though they put up good money to sponsor the event, the show producers and management had a different agenda that infringed on their beliefs and rights as law abiding US citizens, and they boycotted the show.

however, and equally important and tangent to the above, is how we traditional americans view weapons and our society, and what our rights are with regards to guns and other weapons - and make no mistake, that surely does include archery.  there are many posts about this matter within this thread.  one can't discuss the boycott of a gun show without discussing the core issues as to why this is occurring and who is involved.

our constitutional rights are constantly under attack.  most of us know that all too well.  for those who don't, who can't grasp what's happening in america today, please allow this thread to be a wake up call of sorts.  get the facts straight, then decide where you and your family and your friends fit into the bigger picture of life in these united states.  
 
terry has allowed this thread because of the serious gravity of its underlying nature, and ramifications of its potential consequences.  we all need to be aware.  awareness is the first step in both understanding, change, and defense.    

my personal postscript to this now postponed gun show, and to all the senseless tragedies that have occurred in schools throughout our country (also considering the most recent one that just occurred in texas) is ...

... who is viably protecting my grandchildren in their schools right now, today?  what immediate level of protection and defense do they have against another newton tragedy happening in their schools?

[duncan idaho]

Rob,
     You are so correct about who is protecting our children. I am 8 thousand miles away with a child in the Georgia school system, there is no way I can protect him, other than giving him advise on the phone, which is useless in the face of an armed assault. I make my living training people to survive combat, yet, I am totally powerless in defending my child. I have to rely on some stranger to step in do what is necessary. What a nightmare. I have visited his school and survyed it through my training, and I can tell you a non-trained person could take the place, I can only imagine the horror that a trained, tactical person, with a will to die for their cause could unlease.

[Rob DiStefano]

(clearly, i realize this is going off topic, but hopefully in a good way as i see it tying right into the reasoning why pa gun show debacle occurred)

i hear ya, bill - and totally agree.

how do you protect and defend in a school?  imho, with FORCE if need be.  what is "force"?  trained personnel carrying weapons.

to me, this is so stupidly logical that even children can both understand and agree.  but the politcos will not hear of it.  instead, they'll just make it harder to own a gun, will not allow armed security in most schools, will not allow teachers to legally carry (CCW) in schools, will not allow ANY guns in schools.  just totally insane and setting the picture up for another newtown.

[Beanbag]

Rob, excellent point.Unfortunately a lot of our armed, protected, elected officials think that we will be living in a blissful utopia if they are the only ones allow to bear arms. Most people believe they should be coddled by their government and  not have to make any  decisions. Too many people in our country have gotten so far away from reality that they are willing to be led like sheep by the nose. I believe a lot of us know the reality of where that eventually ends up. Hopefully this country will wake up in time.I do believe this agenda has been on the back burner waiting for a good crises to come along after the election. When Aroura CO occurred not a peep was made for fear of losing. Time to pay attention to the movie America.

[Beanbag]

In regards to teachers not being allowed to carry. That would undermine their agenda that all guns are bad. They want all children to fear guns.The rest will be history.

[Roughrider]

For a country crowded with 300,000,000 people, and overworked and over restricted police force, and a soft legal system, I think the number of crimes committed with guns, particularly mass shootings is rather low - and of course should be non existent. I beleive the entire debate on our RIGHT to bear arms goes much deeper than stopping mass shootings.  We are a people with a great history of self reliance, freedom, and gun ownership.  Such people are difficult to control.  Once you convince the masses that your freedom, your right to own a gun if you want, is somehow dangerous to the good of all, you can convince them of about anything - and do about anything with those masses who have now become subjects.  If, for no other reason than to maintain the feeling of freedom, the feeling of individuality, the feeling of responsibility in this country, we should all have the right to own guns - and bows - if we so wish.  

There is a certain degree of risk of living in a free society.  I think we gave up many freedoms after 9/11 when the government installed TSA.  We are now paying through our noses to be strip searched before we board an airplane.  What's the real risk of boarding a plane without TSA?  If every passenger boarding a plane had a gun do you think any of those planes on 9/11 would have reached their destination?  Why do we applaud those on the flight over PA that took action to defend themselves, yet prevent anyone from defending themselves?  Where did this twisted idea come from that I can't defend myself.  Why is it ok for our politicians, celebrities, police and military to carry weapons to defend themselves - aren't our lives also valuable?  

I've never used a gun to defend myself and pray I never have to, but I want the God given right to be able to should it be necessary.  A basic right of ANY living creature is to defend itself.  In the world of nature, of tooth and claw you defend with tooth and claw,  in the world of humans you defend with whatever weapon the aggressor, whomever it is, may have.  Don't go to a gun fight with a knife.  You are never "OVER GUNNED" when you're defending yourself.  

If you don't own a gun now, I would certainly get one - if nothing more than as a show of solidarity to all Americans who value their freedoms.  If you don't agree, travel around the world a little and see how people live in other countries.

[Rob DiStefano]

very well said, dan.

[Doc Nock]

Sorry to offend your sensibilitiesPznuts, but I thought I did reference that there is a ton of emails going around with sources of the items I mentioned in passing... and I did suggest that it is incumbent on us all to do research beyond the media.

BTW, fwiw, I don't have TV anymore since it went digital...and the mainstream is no longer committed to truth reporting but a version of "1984" the book. Same with talk radio. Entertainment and ratings driven. So there is no way I hear or view those shows you "ass-u-med" I used to gather my information.

We can agree to disagree.  I support your right to your own opinion, however that was formed using whatever data you're most comfortable embracing!

Cheers!

And Rob, did you read about how our Politicos kids go to schools with armed guards on the roof?

Isn't that ironic?

[Zbone]

"
Thomas Jefferson stated that the main reason for the people to be armed is so that as a last resort they could fight a tyrannical government. James Madison said the people should have access to the same arms as the standing army of the day. Now no one is suggesting we can buy nukes but his point was this. Should a tyrannical government come to power, similiar to the one we have now. The people need weapons equal to those of the forces they will need to defeat in order to overthrow the government.

This is considered radicalism today but it's not, as we keep letting the govt take freedom after freedom away we are coming closer to a socialist dictatorship. Many think this is an impossibility but it is not and as more people become government dependent it will be easier for this to happen. Throughout history monarchy's, dictatorship and even some socialist democracy's have used the disarmament of the population in order to einforce their will, the most famous of which is Hitler.

Another thing I get tired of is people referring to the US as a democracy, it is not, it is a Republic. The difference between the two in a simplified form is this, a Republic is ruled by a constituion and a democracy is majority rule or mob rule which is what we have now.

They (our politicians) seem to have forgotten they are restrained and limited by the Constitution and instead do what they feel like because they have a majority. In recent history both parties have violated the constitution and it's up to the people to set things right.

The constitution allows for this to happen through diplomacy and elections but when those measures fail they were very clear in that they intended for the people to use force. They foresaw these problems but what they did not foresee is the narrow minded ignorance, laziness and cowardice that has infecteted this country.
"

wapitirod - Bravo, very well said...

pznuts - Paraphrasing the NRA, "The only way to stop a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun."

[Terry Green]

Yes....lets don't get off track please.....

That means no 'devil's advocates'....there's enough of them in DC.

[4runr]

And those Devil's advocates are not only wantinng to ban assult weapons , but shotguns and handguns as well.

Read Senator Feinstien's proposal.

[lpcjon2]

Do you think that the president, and heads of state,and all those others protected by secret service and all of those big CEO's of companies who have armed bodyguards are willing to give up those weapons, or the banks with armed guards. Heck no! But they are the ones who want to ban all our weapons.

 hypocrites all of them!

[gregg dudley]

Some pigs are more equal than others.

[Bldtrailer]

Population with gun & 2nd adm rights = Citizens       here and south of the border. No hint of ever getting true justice for a government   run  gun crime, that may have killed hundreds of men women and childern. Where   is thier Justice?