Time for graphite *sigh*...

[Doublegun]

Damn!  Managed break three of my cedar arrows this afternoon.  Time to buy some graphites, the question is what should I buy?  Here are some specifics:

Shooting three bows (43#, K-Mag, 48# Pearson Hunter and a 50# Kodiak)

Draw length: 29#

Broadheads: 100 gr. Carbon Express XT-4 blade

Ok, experts:  what weight should I buy for shooting at targets and hunting whitetails?

Thanks,

JDG

[BOHO]

Id prolly shoot a 30" heritage. for those weights though I think you'd need a 150 and a 90. If you like smaller shafts Beeman makes a mfx thats pretty sweet.

[threeunder]

Ad Trad Lites and 100 gr inserts should be really close.

[xtrema312]

Buy carbons.   Way more options than graphite.   :D  

I shoot bows 48-54@28 and draw 29”.  I find 400 spine shaft to not be the best option for me on anything under 50@28.  They get too long, heavy or way more FOC than I care to shoot  for deer and smaller stuff.

A 150 is not a bad choice at all, but don’t count on getting down to a 100 gr. point unless you go with a heavy insert.

Possibly a GT trad 3555.  I can shot them in some bows, but they are right on the edge for being too light once I get the point weight down on them so they tune.  They are not very long full length so not much room for cutting to tune.  Probably the best option for getting a 100 gr. point, but you will be very light on GPP.  You could try them on your lightest bows, but go with the CE150 if you want one that will work with all your bows.

The ultimate carbon to shoot in a lot of bows would be the arrow dynamic if your budget will stand them.  

There is also aluminum.

[Doublegun]

Ugh! Once again my head is spinning....

I meant carbon's not graphite.

So starting with a 100 gr. broadhead and working backward: CE Heritage 150's cut to 30" (length of my cedar shafts)?  What weight inserts?

I assume the goal is to balance speed and weight with an emphasis on weight, correct?

[threeunder]

If you go with CE, i would go with 75 gr or 100 gr inserts.  
FWIW, I shoot several bows in the upper 40's and low 50's with both 30" CE 150's with 175-200 gr total up front and 30" aD Trad Lites with 175-250 gr total up front.
The AD's are much less finicky about tip weight.  Both are fine arrows and have enough GPI to make a good hunting setup.
With either you will need a heavy insert to use your 100 gr. heads.
Ken

[Bladepeek]

And what is graphite if not carbon? They call them graphite spinning rods and carbon arrows. Pretty close to the same thing?

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Ugh! Once again my head is spinning....

I meant carbon's not graphite.

So starting with a 100 gr. broadhead and working backward: CE Heritage 150's cut to 30" (length of my cedar shafts)?  What weight inserts?

I assume the goal is to balance speed and weight with an emphasis on weight, correct?

You need to do some reading on past threads to get a better handle on the carbons if you would like to do that.  You can get a lot of knowledge in a short time doing that.

The first couple things you need to understand is that carbon arrows are a little trickier to tune for many people than wood and aluminum.  One reason is that carbons come in a limited number of spines where wood is unlimited to some extend and aluminum has a lot of options. Also carbon arrow have a faster recovery time for paradox.  

Carbons tend to be lighter than aluminum and wood so with most shafts you need to add point weight to get the arrow weight you may want to protect your bow, shoot quiet, and have a good hunting weight arrow.  The Carbon Express Heritage is one that has some good weight to the shaft.  

Carbons change a lot in the way they shoot with just a little cutting so don’t cut one to 30” and then try to tune.  Start off longer and work down slow in length using point weigh to tune.

The best way to go is tune a longer shaft with a lighter point than you may ideally like.  Once you have that working, you can then up the point weight one size and cut ¼” at a time off to tune that heavier point and get closer to your ideal arrow length.  It works a lot better doing this than trying to use the lightest point possible.  

When trying to tune to a very specific point weight particularly a light one, you will likely have to start off with a heavy insert, the light point you want, and a full length shaft.  Then cut down to tune. When I first got into carbon with trad bows I wanted a 125 head because there were so many good 125’s available.  I got there with heavy inserts, but it was not always the best final product.  Now I am totally open to head weights and regularly use 125-200 heads depending on what works best.  I have become very fond of the 175 and 200 heads with 150’s at times.  There is not a 125 head I even like now in comparison to the bigger heavier heads.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Bladepeek:
And what is graphite if not carbon? They call them graphite spinning rods and carbon arrows. Pretty close to the same thing?

Really I think a graphite rod or club shaft is really a carbon rod. I think carbon is really the proper term for both.  I could be wrong, but that is my understanding of it.  Maybe graphite is used to make carbon in a process.  I don’t know.

Both are carbon as is a diamond, but the difference in how the carbon molecules are arranged.

Graphite is a crystalline material in which the sheets are stacked parallel to one another. The chemical bonds between the sheets are relatively weak. A carbon fiber is a long, thin strand of material composed mostly of carbon atoms. The carbon atoms are bonded together in microscopic crystals that are more or less aligned parallel to the long axis of the fiber. The alignment makes the fiber incredibly strong for its size.

A good example of the differences between two carbon based materials is graphite and a diamond.  The two share the same chemistry, but have very different structures and very different properties. Diamond is the hardest mineral known to man, Graphite is one of the softest. Diamond is the ultimate abrasive, Graphite is a very good lubricant.

Way to technical for trad archery.   :D

[Doublegun]

What can you tell me about the AD Trad Lites?  The idea of the tapered design is intreguing.

[xtrema312]

Where are you in MI?

I just started shooting them. They are great!  Do some searches and you will get a pile of info.  Also read the stuff on the AD site.  I have not shoot them in a lot of different bows, but have no doubt they will be very forgiving and easy to tune one arrow to a lot of bows with nothing more than maybe a point weight change.  So far I have shot mine with 125-200 gr. points and they all shoot great on my two bows I am shooting now, but they have similar center cuts and draw weights.  They bare shaft real well with very little visible flight difference between point weights.  I settled on 150's for now because the arrow weight is about the same as my other arrows so trajectory is very similar. I see no issue going lighter for flatter trajectory on targets or heavier for a harder hitting arrow.  I have not shot broadheads yet, but with the way they bare shaft, I can’t imagine broadheads being any less forgiving within reason.

[Dendy Cromer]

doublegun... don't abandon your woodies!

[Andy Cooper]

Originally posted by Doublegun:
What can you tell me about the AD Trad Lites?  The idea of the tapered design is intreguing.

They shoot well out of my bows that are 50-62@28. Very tough and forgiving arrows. I have yet to break one. I have only used the aluminum inserts and have used points between 125 and 200 grains. Now y'all have me curious what might happen if I add some 100 grain brass inserts...better go order another dozen!  :D

[Stumpkiller]

What Dendy said!  Don't go over to the dark side!

[Andy Cooper]

Woodies are still my fav arras, though!!

[Doublegun]

And the plot thickens... I enjoy wooden arrows but I wonder how practical they are for me as I get serious about shooting trad.  The nine remaining arrows will be difficult to replace (I fear). I did buy a dozen from 3-rivers a few years ago but the quality was poor. Arrow weight varried by 10% and that's a problem. What is a good source for decent quality wooden arrows?

[Dendy Cromer]

Here's my answer to that- I love to build wooden arrows,so when i break some of them at least i have a great excuse to build more. I can sympathize with you on the quality issue- and you're right- quality is important. Talk to one of the sponsors on here who sells arrows and let them know what you're looking for in a wooden arrow- I'm sure you won't be let down.

[TURKEYFOOTGIRL]

Sure wood shafts are awesome.  I just got a dozen and they ranged from 406 to 410 grains.  All shafts within 5 grains!   Oh yeah and they are tough too.

[xtrema312]

Here is a recent post with some good info on shaft types.

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=125842#000000

There are many great sponsors that can help you with arrows.  I am really liking the info I have seen on the Wilderness Custom Arrows tapered arrows.

 http://www.wildernesscustomarrows.com/arrows.html

[Doublegun]

Thank you all for the advice and direction. I looked at links to wood builders and TWIG and I may never be able to look at carbon arrows again.

The only problem is digesting all of the information and deciding where to start.  I guess this is one of the reasons why trad is more interesting and challenging than shooting modern equipment.