Carbon arrow gurus. Trying to keep arrow weight under 600 gr

[Tedd]

I'm determined to keep my arrow weight under 600 gr and get perfect arrow flight with carbons. Trying to get the right recipe for my new Widow is proving to be expensive! I want to use the 175 VPA 3 blade.
 I purchased 3 different  types of shafts sure that each one would be perfect. 55/75 gold tips too weak, 75/95 gold tips too stiff unless I get the weight up to about 650 gr.
 So 340 trad only shafts should be perfect correct? Well they are close and fly a bit weak bare shaft just like you want. Or so  I thought. I fletched them up thinking I'm ready to start serious shooting.They weigh 550 gr. When I shoot them I get a lot of feather noise? too fast? Don't know where I'm getting the noise. If they are over correcting I can't see any wiggle. The real test...left and right isn't consistent with a broad head.
So I just ordered the 300 trad only shafts. same spine as the 75/965 gold tip but lighter GPI. So I'll wind up with the .300 Trad Only with 200 gr VPA 3 blades and be about 580 grains total arrow.
But testing has been fun!    

[Tedd]

The bow is 51lb@29". I draw close to 31" so it at about 55 lb.
The tapered Arrow Dynamic seem like they would come in about right. I tested a few of those also. They seem pretty good with broadheads. I have used them for the last 2 years. For some reason I feel like I've never been able to maintain long term tight group accuracy with them over a period of several months and want to change.

[fishbow2]

400 axis shafts full length at 125 grn? that feels like it should be close

[Craig]

Shawn is the carbon guy listen to him

[Shawn Leonard]

Wow, not even close. I have owned a bunch of Widows and even a full length .400 spine with 125 will be stiff. I would say 175 minimum of point weight with a full length .400 and possibly more. If you go with a .340 you will need 250 or so with a full lenght shaft. Shawn

[njloco]

I am shooting 1535's with a 50 gr. brass insert and from 125- 175 gr. filed tips, out of a 54# recurve and they also fly very well with  broad heads but  they are light.

[Bonebuster]

I agree with Shawn

[Mitch H]

Tedd, what part of the state is New Freedom in?

I live around New Stanton in the southwest part of the state.

I have some .340 arrows that are 594 grains total weight with a 200 grain tip that work fine out of my 48 @ 28" recurve, and I only draw it about 28 3/4".

Also have some .400 arrows with a 125 tip that weigh in at 465 grains, and they work very well out of the same setup.

You are welcome to try my arrows, and I have just about every weight of tips to play with from 125 grain up to 300 grain.

BTW, I shoot with a buddy every weekend who shoots a widow. His bow is 50 @ 30" and he draws it 30 1/2". He shoots carbon express 250`s, 32" long, with a 125 grain tip for a total weight of 500 grains, and they work well for him.

Let me know if you are remotely close to me……you might find a combo that will work for you.  

[BDann]

I've shot a couple of bows that bracketed your specs pretty closely.  The Arrow Dynamics flew very well out of both of them with 175's up front.  They were basically the same with 200 up front as well.

[Tedd]

Shawn, that is what I thought, but with my draw length a .400 with 125 point is too weak. I even went to a 100 gr point to stiffen it up. That is pretty close.
Thanks Mitch. I'm in south central PA. Got it covered now, I hope! But if this batch doesn't work maybe I'll change my mind!
Tedd

[xtrema312]

What BW are you shooting?

[xtrema312]

With a real long draw and not much room for cutting, you need to be more flexible on point weight or other things to get tunred. Also consider side plate thickness changes.  I would drop back to the 340 and fine tune with that to see if you can get it.  Silencer changes, side plate, and brace height can all help you.  

Noise could just be feather type.  What is your feather size, number, and cut?  Is the noise just down range or something you hear at the bow at the shot?

[damascusdave]

Have you tinkered with side plate thickness at all...I have been shooting a number of bows, both right and left handed, with a variety of arrows and point weights, at about 5 yards in my basement...I am finding that arrow diameter can be a factor in the equation...the reason to cut a riser past centershot is to allow for a particular diameter of arrow to be exactly centered...it only makes sense that things will be different for a 23/64 diameter arrow than it will be for a 17/64 diameter one even if the spine is the same...the only way to allow for that difference in diameter, short of shooting an adjustable plunger rest, is by varying sideplate thickness...hope this will help you to get that final fine tune...i do not have the patience to do that so will continue to shoot higher draw weight with heavier arrows to get good penetration with less than perfect arrow flight...one way that i have chosen to do that is shooting the 2 blade VPA's rather than the 3 blades i used to shoot

[Guru]

Tedd, I think the .340 will work out with a little tweeking like xtrema312 is talking about above.

In my lighter KS 'curve, I shoot at about 58-59# at my 28 3/4"draw, .340's cut down to 29 3/8" and 250gr. points are still a tad weaker than "perfect"....but shoot really well.

I would think with your long draw and a lighter point you should be able to make .340 work....just remember all .340's are not created equal.....I've found some are stiffer than others.

I'm shooting Beman Bowhunters....a fairly light GGP so you should be able keep it under 600grs.

[will_hunt]

Are you hoping to keep the weight down in order to achieve the most speed from an arrow?  If that is your intention then I can offer some sage advice learned over years of flinging sticks from a string. The faster my arrow goes, the faster I can generally miss. I would rather shoot a perfect arrow no matter the weight, than shoot a faster arrow because it makes me feel better about doing it.

[Tedd]

Thanks everyone. I probably did a poor job of describing my testing and the reason for the completed arrow weight.
For years I used cedar shafts and I still like them. But combined with the difficulty finding shafts in the 80-85-90 spine range. Shafts being too short (If I cut any off the standard length cedar shaft the broadhead bumps the riser). And wanting something unaffected by hunting trip travel hazards, I have been using the carbons for two years.
The cedar arrows with 125 gr broadhead is the deadliest arrow I ever shot. They are quiet at that weight (under 600 gr) and almost always pass through. I'm really comfortable with that trajectory and only get my best long range accuracy with that set up.
My goal is a simplified carbon setup that matches the cedar arrow. By simple I mean - no weight system, being able to use the nocks that come with them, common insert and nock size, able to use the arrow wraps for cap color, able to use luminocks if I want and just simply screwing in a store bought un altered broad head.
 Continued...

[Tedd]

I've been using the Arrow Dynamics tapered shafts, they are a pretty good option. I settled on them after a previous round of testing with my Acadian Woods Treestick. But I can't say they are prefect. I don't like the knocks, at that time you had to glue on a regular knock because the supplied nocks broke. I don't think the arrow wraps work on them. And you can't slip on a lighted nock. The diameter can make a  transitions where the broadhead screws on reducing penetration. So I see room for improvement.
I tried the Carbon express, but after realizing you need to throw away 2 or so out of a dozen of the fact that they are foreign made and have an ugly finish. They just weren't for me.
Continued...

[Tedd]

I really like the Gold Tips. (supposedly mexican made now). But very consistent, nice too look at, feel like wood, consistent spine.
So I set to testing them to get the correct size.
I bare shafted the 55/75, it flew weak, I reduced point weight all the way down to 100 gr. I have to use full length shafts. It still flew weak. And the bow is too loud with that lightweight set up.
I fletch them up and tried them with all the point weights up to the 175. The really make a lot of feather noise and  it's hard to maintain left and right accuracy with the boradhead.
So I figure I really need to step up to the stiffer shaft.  I bareshaft tested those and surprisingly they fly stiff until I get the point weight way up and a finished arrow weight of about 650 gr. Not a deal breaker but still I should be able to do this easy enough. So I got the .340 trad only shafts. Wow they look nice and should be perfect. Well they fly weak even with the 100 gr points. I went through extensive testing with them. Continued...

[xtrema312]

The 7595 GT trad is more like a 300 spine.
 
I am kind of in the same boat as you due to draw length and bow weight.  I fall between 500 and 400 spine with my cut to center bows.  I would like a lighter arrow than the 400 with 275 up front, but can’t get a 500 to work on most bows.   The AD helps as does the CX, but I know what you mean about the looks of the CX.   Some days I think about going back to aluminum, but for now the AD’s are looking very promising.

I  just started with the AD's.  I have the newer nocks and they are very durable.  I got a solid field point hit on one the other day and just put a cut on one side of the string grove without breaking it.  Held up about like an Easton super nock based on that one hit.  So far no failure with hard hits. You can also do the G-nocks, but I like the standard ones fine.  I think you can get wraps from one stringer.  I don’t know about the lighted nocks, but I don’t think there are any other nocks the size of the AD’s.  I did hear or read someplace the other day that they changed the AD’s to use one of the more standard nock sizes.  I don’t know if that is true.  Post up about options for point end of the shaft.  Terry Green can probably help you out with that issue. Maybe there is a broadhead adaptor.  I figure 3-4 blades will open up room for the shaft. I can see more of an issue with a two blade through bone.

[Tedd]

Each shaft was tested over a several day period, just to make sure the results were correct. I used different gloves, strings, silencers, I shot them from both ends of the range with and without crosswinds, in the warm and in the cold, multiple brace heights, nock points...etc.
I'll keep playing around with it. The only thing I haven't done is bump out the side plate.
I have some .300 Trad Only shafts on the way.
with wood shafts you can go up or down just 5lb in spine. There should be a few more spine choices in carbon. Look how many aluminum spine sizes they make? Why not the same with carbon?
It almost makes me want to try some aluminum. Heck that owuld be easy to find a spine.
I'm wondering why a mfg hasn't come out with a wood spine equivalent arrow shaft. Marketed in spines that match the wood shafts.  So a shooter could purchase them in 5lb spine increments just like cedars from 35lb spine to 95 lb spine.