Ok, Need some serious help with spine issues.

[edge2009]

First off,
I like to think of myself as a some what knowledgeable guy when it comes to bows and archery. This however, is throwing me for loops.    :confused:  


My bow --> Thunder child by Big Jim (older model) 38# @ 28" (56") I draw I think about 29"

I started with Gold Tip Traditional 1535 31" with 100 grain FP. Noticed some inconsistency.


So here go...

The facts.

So I started bare shaft tuning...
First 1535 31" - MAJOR weak spine signs.

Second, 3555 29" - still weak spine.

Third, some fir wood arrows made for my 45# recurve (I'm assuming a heavy spine) IT EVEN SHOWED WEAK SPINE!      
I did however tried another guys arrows last weekend at a shoot. He shot some type of carbon arrows full length (500s) with 125 grain heads. They shot like darts out of my bow.

also...
I tried shooting my bare shafts from about 5 yards, then 10 yards and not much difference. From the little I know of bare shaft tuning, I thought it didn't matter much....


Please, any thoughts or help is greatly needed.


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Well..... heres your sign.... lol

tottaly meant too STIFF of a spine, the nock was way to the right, and point to the left.

When I saw this last weekend someone referred to it as "too weak" , so I didn't bat an eye at it... after researching online, I noticed its opposite...

so... lol , sorry

[macbow]

I'm not going to be much help.
I would have guessed the 15/35 would be weak.
But not the 35/55. I shoot 35/55 from my 50 and up to 55 pound longbows with no trouble.
My bows,are not center shot. And that could be the difference.

[edge2009]

I too thought they would be fine, especially being shorter. Thanks for the input either way.

[CJ Pearson]

Shawn Leonard is the one to ask. He is very knowledgeable with arrow spine.

[edge2009]

Thanks CJ, I'll hunt em down!

[gonefishing600]

Hey edge, please allow me to be of some assistance!

You said in the beginning of your post your a "knowledgeable guy when it comes to bows and archery" Is this a new bow your trying to tune, or and old bow you have never been able to tune?

Then, you are shooting carbons 1535, and 3555, then you switch to woodies, and they are totally too weak! What do you want to shoot wood or carbon?

Point is, you need to figure out what you want to shoot, and then take a step at a time to get dialed in. Once you understand your bow, you can shoot most anything you want.

If I where you, I would go back to the 1535's. Then explain those inconsistency. Possibly, shorting up the shaft a-bit. But, at that draw weight, I find it hard to belive that 3555 are still to weak.

Could also be your form. If you condense your question down to one question at a time, your post will be more productive.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong!

[Matty]

1535 and weal spine? 3555 and weak spine? Hhhmmmm
Is your brace height set properly? Pretty sure 3555 are 500's.
Good luck there will be a bunch of people chiming in to help

[edge2009]

Originally posted by gonefishing600:
Hey edge, please allow me to be of some assistance!

You said in the beginning of your post your a "knowledgeable guy when it comes to bows and archery" Is this a new bow your trying to tune, or and old bow you have never been able to tune?

Then, you are shooting carbons 1535, and 3555, then you switch to woodies, and they are totally too weak! What do you want to shoot wood or carbon?

Point is, you need to figure out what you want to shoot, and then take a step at a time to get dialed in. Once you understand your bow, you can shoot most anything you want.

If I where you, I would go back to the 1535's. Then explain those inconsistency. Possibly, shorting up the shaft a-bit. But, at that draw weight, I find it hard to believe that 3555 are still to weak.

Could also be your form. If you condense your question down to one question at a time, your post will be more productive.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong!

Fishing, your right... I was bouncing around so much. Mainly because I was getting frustrated. I made a mistake if you notice the edit at the bottom of my original post.

the arrows are in fact stiff enough, but too stiff!    yep... that whole "I think I'm knowledgable... throw out the window" lol.

So I guess my only option is to bump the point weight up. I tried 100 originally, they were way off. Then tried 125 and they helped. I don't have any higher grain weight, but I'm thinking 160 might be the trick?

sorry for my inconsistency!

[Orion]

The 15/35s should work with the correct weight head.  The 35/55s will be too stiff unless you really load up the front end.  As I remember, a Thunder Child has a fair amount of reflex deflex, but it's a pretty short bow for a 29-inch draw.  It could magnify form problems, particularly plucking, which would tend to throw the arrow to the left for a right handed shooter.

[FerretWYO]

Lots of good ideas here. I would check a few things out just makes sure. Nock fit to loose will cause this some times.

Brace height also. Check double check.

Don't take this the wrong way but in my experience arrow performance is a direct result of your follow through and release. Be mindful of you form when tuning.

[BigJim]

That makes much more sense that they are all too stiff. Try bumping pt weight up on the 1535's.

        1535's ...they will typically work for bows between 38 and 48 lbs depending on arrow length/draw length/ pt weight/ depth of riser cut.

If you are truly shooting 29"s (but you don't know for sure) you are only shooting 40-41 lbs and if not, your shooting less lbs.
I would try 145g or even 175g to see if you can break the spine down a little. Also check to see if your nocks are too tight on the string and if you are shooting three under, add a nock pt under the arrow.

All the things above can make a difference. You also said that the 1535's are 31"s, the only way that is possible is if they  are the dark wood shafts as the regular wood grain only come in 30 3/8" to the throat of the nock.

The Thunder Child will easily handle a 29" draw so not likely that there is a problem there. Most likely you just need a weaker arrow.

good luck, bigjim

[edge2009]

I have no doubt the problems I'm having are 100% me, no doubt on that.

Jim, like I said on the phone, love the bow! you gave me the advice I was looking for. I think I just need to mess around with the pt weight.

I'm thinking a good bit could be my form as well.

[Bladepeek]

FWIW, I just got a Mohawk longbow, 66" and 33# @ 29". I started tuning some arrows. I was using 1535s full length. I believe the factory length is only 30", as I have 30.5" from nock valley to base of point. I had to go all the way up to 300 gr total (225 gr field pint and 75 gr insert) before they finally started flying right. These are .600 spined arrows.

I think the factor that accounts for the extremely weak dynamic spine is the distance from center on this bow. Most of my bows are cut to center or nearly so. This one, even with a thin sideplate is +1/4". Makes a HUGE difference. Try adding some serious weight to those 1535s (like a 175 gr point) and see if that makes a difference.

[BigJim]

edge2009, I doubt it is your form. Those arrows are probably just too stiff. Don't let the 15/35 number fool you. Those numbers are used for quick refferance to compound weights. And yes, adding weight up front can help, but it typically takes quite a bit of weight to make a real difference such as 50-100g more.
That bow is cut to center by the way.

good luck, bigjim

[flinthead]

Not a arrow Guru here, but My biggest reason for arrows[that are way weak] flying knock right is allowing release hand to come off the face during release [or plucking].A bad release will make a 600 spine arrow look stiff out of a 50#bow.
Getting frustrated just seems to compound the problem. This is just what has happened in my own shooting. Good luck, Roy

[duffer1565]

I had the same problem with a bow. My fix was in my nocking point. The arrow must have been bouncing off the shelf. Tied a nock under the arrow and the same arrows turned into darts.

[xtrema312]

What Big Jim said.  Best thing to do when shooting carbon is to get two packs of mixed field point weights and some 100 gr. inserts.  3 Rivers has the head packs.  I think they go 100-225.
 
I am working with a D/R LB right now that is cut a little past center and almost 55@29”.  I have some CE150 tuned as well as some AD’s.  I got messing with a GT trad 3555 last night.  I had tried them before and found they shot real well with a pile of weight on them before, but they were tail high bare shafting.  So last night I started shooting it in paper and trying some changes to tune.  At first they looked too weak with 100 inserts and 100 points.  I figured they would be, but I started loading them up with more point weight to see how weak they would fly and they got better.  I ended up with my last few shots looking real good. I had a 30” 3555 with 100 gr. insert and 200 point.  That shouldn’t work, but it looks real good in paper 6’ out to about 15’. I will test more next time I get a chance and try a bare shaft also.  

I have another bow almost the same weight and not cut as far past center and it shoots any combo of 3555 way weak.  You just don’t know until you try some stuff.  Sometimes I find bows of very similar draw weight, type, and center cut shoot a different spine range carbon.  The way a carbon can shoot in different bows and the way they act with HFOC really puzzles me at times. I have totally given up on trying to figure out what should work.  I now tend to just load up the lightest spine shaft I have and start high on nock point and work it out from there.

[edge2009]

Originally posted by flinthead:
Not a arrow Guru here, but My biggest reason for arrows[that are way weak] flying knock right is allowing release hand to come off the face during release [or plucking].A bad release will make a 600 spine arrow look stiff out of a 50#bow.
Getting frustrated just seems to compound the problem. This is just what has happened in my own shooting. Good luck, Roy

Ok, this is where I'm getting confused. I thought nock right , and point left meant stiff spine, not weak???

Man oh man am I lost, lol

[Easykeeper]

If you are getting a stiff reaction with the 31" 1535 shafts, no point in going to a shorter 3555.  I would try to make the 1535 weak.  Get some heavy points and see what happens.  You need to make a bigger change than going from 100 - 125 grain points though, like others said get a selection of screw in heads from 3Rivers.  Buy a dozen 175, 225, and 300 grain field points for tuning, they last forever and are a lot cheaper than arrows.  If you don't want to use a heavy head in the long run you can at least diagnose your situation with them and then cut your shaft back so you can use lighter points.

Make a   big change in your point weight, don't sneak up on it.  I would try a 300 grain point first, if you don't see a weak reaction with that heavy a point you know you need to change shafts.

On bare shaft tuning, the further back you are the better the information you get.  Start short to make sure the bare shafts will be on the target, then back up to at least 15 yards, 20 is better, 25 is good.

[swamp donkey]

you're misreading the signs, your too stiff would be my bet, especially if the bows not cut past center.