Nock point advice

[mountain lion]

I just made me a new string for my longbow and I was bare shafting an arrow and I set the nock point at 1/2" and the arrow was extremely nock low!!! Now I moved it up a little at a time and when it finally got to where the arrow was flying straight the nock was at an 1 1/4!! What is the deal??? I shoot 3 under and I'm pretty sure I wasnt torquing the bow or anything.

[Bud B.]

Flip arrow cock feather in and try it. Also a double nocking point if three under.

Also, how tight do the nocks fit or are they loose?

[McDave]

1/2" is pretty low for 3 under.  3/4" is common for me.  Some bows I have had go up to 7/8".  I've read about people using an inch.  I don't know about 1 1/4", it sounds pretty high.  Have you been shooting this bow at a lower nock point before, and how has that worked?

It is possible that if you're putting too much pressure on your ring finger, it could cause your lower limb to bend more than it should, and cause the condition you're describing.  I've heard 10% as being the relative pressure you should have on your ring finger compared with the other two fingers. Have to admit that I've never payed too much attention to relative finger pressure in my own shooting, but it's the only thing I can come up with, other than the obvious possibility that your bow may need to be retillered for 3 under.

It's not going to hurt the bow to use a 1 1/4" nock point; at worst, it may be a little noisier than it should be and might change the spine of the arrow it needs, probably to a weaker spine.  If you can't figure anything else out, shoot it for a while using that nock point and let us know what you think.

[McDave]

I agree with Bud that two nock points makes sense. With only one nock point above, the arrow could slip down and give you a false indication that the nock point was too low.

Hey Bud, what's the reason for recommending the flipped cock feather?

[Gator1]

X2 on double nock it will solve the issue

[mountain lion]

Thanks fellas, I had the nock point at 5/8" before. The nocks fit a little right but not bad. Ill try the to watch my finger and put an extra nock set on and ill get back with ya!!

[olddogrib]

Not to drag this post away from the OP, but I shoot 3U and seem to always end up around 5/8ths" across multiple bows, long & RC. I think nearly all have been tillered split, but I'm ordering a set of limbs that will be tillered 3U. Will I need to lower nock point, or is it more of a personal form thing?  I know some bowyers discount the whole custom tillering thing.

[Bud B.]

I got consistent nock high indications and by flipping cock feather in the bottom fletch does not hit the shelf thereby kicking the arrow up.

[olddogrib]

Bud,
Not doubting your results, but you can Google bunches of slo-mo videos on Youtube that demonstrate archer's paradox. I can't say that they're not shooting underspined arrows to exaggerate the effect, but compounds or trad, it makes no difference. At release, the arrow bends into the bow until it looks as if it should snap and then rebounds.  By the time the fletched end gets to the riser, it has "snaked" so wide that there's nothing to come in contact with.  That's why I've never understood how fletching orientation can improve arrow flight on a well-tuned bow with properly spined arrows. I have to believe they're legit, because I can get cuts from RW fletching on the meaty web of my bow hand(I'm right handed)at the base of my index finger.  This doesn't happen with LW fletching, but if you look at the cock fletch it looks like LW should be worse. After watching those videos, I believe what is actually happening is that my hand is getting raked by the sharp leading edge of the fletch in the 5 o'clock stationary position, not the (9 o'clock)cock fletch at all.  Accuracy is the same with either. Somebody correct me if I'm off base.

[Bud B.]

Took the advise of an old timer here on the constant nock high showing while shooting fletched. Simply turned the arrow 180 degrees on the string and nock high disappeared. It worked. Hill style flat shelf. Not raduised. On my radiused shelfed bows cock feather out is good too.

Most Hill style bows have low brace. Use 5" fletchings on a 6" brace and the arrow leaves the string with the front of the fletch already at the shelf before clearing the string and allowing total paradox to have occurred. I have switched to mostly 4" fletching due to that.

Likely not an issue on recurves with 7" or higher brace.

I don't argue with the slow mo vids, but I don't argue with actual self-experienced results either.

Hope you are well Richard. Come over to Sissipahaw on the 18th if you can.

 

[olddogrib]

Yea, don't think I've seen the slo-mo on a brace height that low, it may well be a different animal.  I'm going to try to get to Burlington.  I'm still hauling around a bunch of TBM's if you still need them, but I think you said your soldier's tour was over.

[Mike Vines]

I thought my arrows were flying right, and after talking with a few guys on TG, I raised my nock poit a 1/4" to 5/8", and my arrow flight is superb now.  I'll take take quieter and better arrow flight any day.

Also, Bud told me about the cock feather in trick while hog hunting, and I did that and with that particular bow, the arrow flight was inmproved.

That just tells me that there is a lot ways to tune a bow.

[mountain lion]

I tried putting on a second nock set and the arrow is still flying nock low, if the nock is a little tight would that cause that? If I shoot a fletched arrow it shoots ok, but I know in my mind that a bare shaft arrow is not right so it constantly eats at me?

[xtrema312]

Lots of ways to tune a bow for sure.  

Are you seeing the nock real low with a bare shaft or a fletched one?  If bare shaft, I would say it is missing the shelf and just nocked too low or sliding low on the string.  If you are seeing the fletched shaft sweeping low in flight, I would say it is too low and just flying nock low or hitting, coming off hard high and overcorrecting.  

I shoot 3 under most of the time now since late last fall.  Most bows will tune with 5/8" – ¾” brace height and that is about the same as when I shoot split.  Go figure.  But, I have to have a nock over and under my arrow. Shooting 3 under the low nock is the most critical for me. I can put a small piece of tape on for a high nock, and it will not budge. The low nock has to be on real well.  I have a new bow I am playing with and the low nock is brass.  The string is skinny and the serving not as thick as some other stings I like, SBD’s for example.  Shooting 3 under that brass nock will work down slowly. I have to reset it every few days.  It really takes a lot of force.  I am convinced it is not possible to really tune a bow and shoot it consistent with most nocks on carbon arrows without a bottom nock.

I also shoot my feathers orientated to limit any contact with the shelf and the rest material.  I see too many time that a feather on the rest will impact flight.  Some say it will flex out of the way if the arrow is spined right, but I don’t believe that with cut past center bows and wider shelf.  For three fletch I shot cock feather up or in.  I think up is best.  For 4 fletch I shoot 75x105 with the 105 facing the shelf.  I get very little feather wear doing things this way.  I could be all wrong about the feather riding the rest, but if it didn’t, we could all shoot vanes.  I figure there is no way for a feather that in only 1-2” from the self at brace can come off the string at less than brace height as  the string goes past brace and the arrow then flex to totally miss the shelf with the feather.  Maybe on a cut out form center long bow with a narrow little shelf, but I don’t think so on a cut past center bow with wider shelf.

[katman]

"I tried putting on a second nock set and the arrow is still flying nock low, if the nock is a little tight would that cause that? If I shoot a fletched arrow it shoots ok, but I know in my mind that a bare shaft arrow is not right so it constantly eats at me?"

Where does the bare shaft hit in relation to the fletched shaft? that is impact of point not nock orientation.

[Charlie Lamb]

It will be very difficult to get reliable tuning results if your nocks are too tight.

When clipped on the string and let hang, the arrow should release when the string is tapped lightly.

Anything tighter and it will affect arrow flight, speed and bowstring noise.

[mountain lion]

The point of the fletched arrow and the bare shaft hit the same, but the bare shaft nock is really low and the fletched arrow is straight. If that makes sense

[Bud B.]

Richard,

Those TBM's could go to the St. Jude auction??????

[McDave]

Whenever the nock end of a bare shaft flys any direction other than directly behind the point end, the shaft acts like a rudder on a sailboat.  So when the nock flys low, the pressure of the air against the shaft creates an upward force, which will cause it to impact higher than a shaft that is flying with the nock directly behind the point.  A fletched arrow quickly corrects this condition, so the nock low has little effect on the impact point of the fletched arrow.  Which is why we would expect to see nock low bare shafts impact above fletched arrows.

The fact that you don't see this is interesting.  It means that either your nock low bare shaft is a false nock low, or that something is causing your fletched arrows to deflect upward.  I don't know what a false nock low would mean, as I have never seen one, but perhaps someone else has. I do know that if your nock point is really low, then you can see a bounce in your fletched arrows right after they leave the bow as they rebound off the shelf. Perhaps this bounce could cause a fletched arrow to impact higher than expected.

I'm assuming you have no significant fish-tailing?

After making sure that your arrow nocks are fitting properly, I would set your nock point at wherever it needs to be to get good bare shaft flight.  If you aren't happy with the way it shoots at that nock point, then it may just be one of those bows that don't shoot well three under.  I've had a couple of those that I've eventually traded to split finger shooters, who have had better luck with them.

[mountain lion]

Thanks McDave, your knowledge is greatly appreciated