Flemish Versus Endless

[zilla]

Are there any advantages to using an endless loop string over a flemish?  I see the olympic archers prefer the endless. Enlighten me please....

[LBR]

Probably easier to get the same string from one maker to the next with endless.  I know flemish can vary a lot, depending on who made it.  Flemish may need a bit more time to settle in as well.

Other than that, I don't know of any advantages to endless.  I used to think endless were a little faster, but that was debunked.  Flemish are usually quieter, which I like.  Several top IBO shooters use flemish, including Rod Jenkins and Bill Leslie.

I haven't shot an endless string in quite a while, but have been thinking about it just to remember what it felt/sounded like.

Bottom line, either one will do the job as long as the monkey holding the bow does theirs.

Chad

[O.L. Adcock]

Yep, What Chad said.....It might be harder to find/make GOOD Flemish strings but I'm convinced they are better then end-less when you do....O.L.

[zilla]

Thanx... I make my own strings but lately noticed that some use the endless... Just curious.. Thanx again

[deadpool]

omg o.l adcock!!!!

[draco]

It takes a bigger,more complicated jig to make endless loop strings. Also it takes more time to make one with the added serving and all. I`ve seen several break,always in the loop. You can take a Flemish string apart and make it shorter or a little longer if your buddy cuts a string and does`nt have a spare. I know because it happened to a friend on a hunt in Colorado.I assure you he was the only Compound shooter in Colorado with a Flemish string on his bow. But it kept him hunting. I dont know why those guys shoot those things when they can`t even change a string on them.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I suppose I've always prefered endless strings. They're easy and fast to make, simple to get consistent lengths from string to string, more than strong enough, and they settle in within a dozen arrows or so (unless you're using Dacron).

[Rob DiStefano]

Endless or Flemish? - both will surely do for bowhunting ...

Endless bowstrings are "spun" from one continuous strand of bowstring fiber. The strands are joined together by serving one of the end loops. Then the other end loop is served. The serving primarily prevents abrasion of the string fibers at the limb nocks. Loops can have additional strands added for added bulk on low strand count HMPE strings.  Endless strings are crafted on a special string jig to precise lengths.

After decades of designing and building endless bowstring jigs, my "one arm bandit" jig is easy to build and works superbly ...
 
   
 
   

Flemish bowstrings are "twisted in the air" - no real jig is used or needed. Getting the proper string length is not an easy task. Instead of serving the string loops, extra strands are twisted and woven into the loops for abrasion protection.

Both strings of the same number of strands of the same string fiber type are of EQUAL strength. It's a myth that because Flemish bowstrings have more strands in the loops they're stronger than endless strings ... so, given the same number of strands of the same fiber, within the main body of the string, Flemish and endless will have the same exact same breaking strength.

After having spun and twisted thousands of strings over the last 50+ years, I've come to appreciate what I consider the superior consistency of endless strings. They can be made to precise lengths every time. They do not have the energy robbing "spring" effect of many many multiple twists. However, they must be created on a special endless bowstring jig. They can be made quite pretty by using two (or more!) different colored string fibers, for a "zebra" swirl effect. I look at it this way, too - there's a reason why Olympic FITA archers use endless bowstrings.

I also believe that neither Flemish or endless strings were the predominant bowstring type used in medieval times for warfare or hunting. Certainly both loops were not twisted or served into the string since those old bows changed brace height and constantly required tweaking. Though no ancient string has survived, I think Ye Olde Stringe Maker either employed a spliced loop at one and used a bowyer knot at the other end for efficiency and variability, or, easier yet, a bowyer's knot at both ends. It just seems so logical ... but I sure could be wrong.

YMMV!

[6 POINT]

I had read that endless strings gave more velocity than flemish so I wrote to Black Widow since those are the bows I shoot and the reply from Ken was that the endless was about a foot a second faster than flemish BUT that unless the endless loop was properly made it could cut through the nocks on the bow!!! I decided 1fps wasn't worth risking a great shooting bow over. Frank

[Charlie Lamb]

Well said Rob... I agree wholeheartedly.  

[LBR]

If a flemish string isn't properly made it can damage the bow also.  Speed can vary well over 1 fps (with either string) depending on how they are made, how much serving, what size serving, etc. etc. etc.

It boils down to personal preferance.  For me, flemish has always been quieter.  I'm primarily a hunter, so that's what I use.  I don't know any Olympic shooters, but the best shots I know (3-D) use flemish, so I don't see a problem with accuracy using them.

I have seen some really poorly made strings in both styles, and nice ones.  How it's made will make more of a difference than if it's endless or flemish.

From the tests I've been told of (I haven't done any myself)if all things equal, primarily string weight, they will have the same speed.  I'm sure if you did enough testing with different strings from different people, you'll find some flemish faster, some endless faster, but if they are made properly the speed difference will be minimal.  

I hope to find time to do some tinkering with both.  I've about worn out my homemade endless jig, but have a new "store bought" one due in any day.  Need an excuse to play with it.

Chad

[Eric Garza]

I use endless strings exclusively, just because they're easier to make with a consistent length.  I also use natural materials, usually hemp, flax or a hemp/flax blend, so don't have to worry about the string cutting into my nocks.

It's probably true that endless are a little noisier, since they don't have the built in springiness that comes with the twist of a flemish.  I'm willing to accept this, though, since they're so much easier to make.  

And you don't need a huge jig, just a well-designed one.  mine fits on a small (less than 2 feet long and 3 inch wide) board.  

-Eric

[LBR]

Ok, one myth needs cleared up here.  If a flemish string is "springy", it has too much twist.

Since I'm not the technical type, I look at it from a practical viewpoint.  What sense would it make for bowyers who are known for performance in their products to use a "springy" string that's going to cost them performance?  i.e., Adcock/A&H, Morrison, Turkey Creek, etc.  Why would top tournament archers and hunters (or anyone) use them if that was the case?

I prefer flemish because they are quieter, but it wouldn't break my heart to use an endless string, because there's not a huge difference.

Just want to add, in case there's any question--I make and sell both, so that has nothing to do with my POV.

Chad

[RayMO]

I make the endless strings because I, like Eric, think it is easier to get a consistent length and it is not as hard on these old hands that don't need an excuse to start hurting.

You can make a bad string both ways and the performance argument does not have any real significant merit to me.

I do like the looks of a good flemish string, so there is no right or wrong to this one just what you like and why.

RayMO

[Rob DiStefano]

I agree with ya, Chad - for the very most part, a well made twisted string isn't "springy", but the inherent large number of twists required to keep the strands together does have a subtle spring-like (for lack of a better term) effect.  One MUST take into account that spring/stretch factor when twisting up for a precise length.  Endless strings are built with no, or very few twists - almost always a finished endless string gets some twists put in to round off the string.  I think that Flemish strings are typically quieter than endless, due to the number of twists.  

IMHO, I prefer endless 'cause they're just easier/way faster to spin (than mess with twisting), and an endless string can be easily made to very precise loop-to-loop lengths that will not change much at all since there are very very few twists to stretch out.

HOWEVER, I do like the concept and aesthetics of Flemish strings and when I twist one up for myself on a cold Winter's night by the fireplace, I only splice one loop (the top loop) and use a bowyer's knot for the bottom loop - super easy to adjust.

YMMV!

[zilla]

Great discussion.  As I stated, I have been making Flemish strings foir quite a while.  I have noticed that repeatability of length can be an issue once in a while. I learned to twist Flemish because it looked so complicated to do.. It isn't. I am thinking of building an endless jig and trying a few of those.. If I were to want to make a 2 color endless, do you just change colors while winding?? And where do the ends finish up?  I am thinking the ends must be in the loops.  Thanx again for all the good info.

[LBR]

1.  I learned to twist Flemish because it looked so complicated to do.. It isn't.

2. If I were to want to make a 2 color endless, do you just change colors while winding??

3. And where do the ends finish up? I am thinking the ends must be in the loops.

Yep, yep, and yep.

Chad

[OconeeDan]

I made a endless loop string jig using Rob's instructions in the "how to" section, I can tell you it works well.
Only I used a piece of the thin unistrut which made it lighter and less bulky.
The endless loop strings are good for us "less twisted".
Thanks, Rob!
Dan

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by OconeeDan:
I made a endless loop string jig using Rob's instructions in the "how to" section, I can tell you it works well.
Only I used a piece of the thin unistrut which made it lighter and less bulky.
The endless loop strings are good for us "less twisted".
Thanks, Rob!
Dan

Yer most welcome, Dan!

The unistrut makes a Great one arm bandit endless jig, real easy to build and with very few parts - I highly recommend it ...

 

... but I do like the heavier, bulkier metal angle jig because it's a tad more stable for spinning lots and lots of strings ...

 

[Seeking Trad Deer]

I never understood why Mike Fedora requires the use on endless loop only strings on his bows for the warranty...anybody have any ideas?