The Lethality Of The Diaphragm

[gregg dudley]

When I was preparing for my bear hunt in Saskatchewan eight years ago there was this whole trending conversation about "over the hip" shots on bears.  It really boiled down to the hard quartering shot through the diaphram.  I hadn't thought about that conversation in a long while until this came up.  I ended up shooting my bear broadside.   :D  

If you think about the longest distance of travel through the body then the quartering shot makes a lot of sense.  More trauma over a larger distance increasing the number of organs, tissue, etc. that the broadhead comes into contact with. I look for a quartering shot on hogs although I know some killers who have differing opinions.

[Bjorn]

Anyway I can get through both lungs is just fine with me. Broadside at 15 yds, and on the ground is my fav shot!    

[LC]

Call it luck, considence whatever but I've NEVER lost a animal that was shot quartering away that the diaphragm was poked. Like some have said it may just be because of a bigger kill zone, multiple organs skewed etc but bottom line it's my favorite shot.

[akaboomer]

On an arrow wound through the lungs there is massive hemorrhage but when you also puncture the diaphragm there is more room for the lungs to collapse.  In the emergency medical field its called hemo thorax.  The diaphragm continues to move but now its pumping fluids from the abdomen into the thorax.  This presssure deflates the lungs making breathing less effective. A puncture through the ribs can do the same thing. As the diaphragm moves it sucks air in through the new hole collapsing the lungs.  Stuff learned in EMT school.  Because the mechanics of a deers lungs are basically the same the results are bleeding to death and suffocating at the same time and fast.

Chris

[nineworlds9]

How bout the Texas Heart Shot anyone? LOL.  The quartering away shot definitely makes sense anatomically.

[pdk25]

I don't want to sidetrack Izzy's thread, but I am gonna disagree with your reasoning, akaboomer.  No big deal, just a conversation.  For a hole through the chest wall to do what you say, it must seal on expiration and act like a check valve, a somewhat infrequent event, especially with a broadhead entry wound.  Now, a wound that only damaged the diaphragm but not the lung parenchyma could do as you say, but again, that would be an unlikely event.  Any damage to the lungs would decrease the vacuum effect, and the blood in the chest cavity would be primarily from the damage to the diaphragm and thorax.  Interesting discussion, though.  Actually seen a little bit of this type of injury in humans, myself.

I am not sure whether the animals that I have shot quartering away have expired more quickly than broadside.  I would really have to go back and think about it.  I think I have shot quite abit more from directly broadside than quartering through the diaphragm.  A longer wound change certainly would give you some more opportunites to hit a big vessel.  Alternatively, if you take out the big vessels coming out of the heart, it doesn't take long for the brain to suffer.  Really good discussion.

[Mitch H]

Lots of shot angles are quickly lethal. That said, I prefer a nice broadside shot because the odds are greater that I can centerpunch both lungs without hitting any major bone. Critters that take a major bone hit are much more prone to immediate and rapid flight meaning I have to track them farther.

Having been fortunate enough to take over 200 big game animals myself with stick and string, plus recovering roughly 500 more critters hit by my clients, one thing I am fairly confident of is…….day in and day out, I will take two center hit lungs every single time. Despite countless assurances by clients after tracking their deer for more than 100 yards, I have never had a deer of any variety make it 50 yards with a hole poked through the middle of its lungs.

[Overspined]

Not close to 200 kills, but I couldn't agree more Mitch.   When I double lung em, I watch them fall.  I shot a giant whitetail buck through both lungs and he was collapsing in less than 30 yds on a dead run.  It's the largest animal I've killed so far and fell over as fast as any other.

[Mitch H]

Originally posted by Overspined:
Not close to 200 kills, but I couldn't agree more Mitch.   When I double lung em, I watch them fall.  I shot a giant whitetail buck through both lungs and he was collapsing in less than 30 yds on a dead run.  It's the largest animal I've killed so far and fell over as fast as any other.

Although I am on the high side of 50, when I bust an arrow through a deers lungs and they just flinch and look around wondering what just happened, it is hard for me to keep from giggling out loud and telling them that they should have run when they had the chance.    

[pdk25]

I know one thing, I don't pass up either shot.  If I was going to try to arrange a stand for a shot it would be for slighlty quartering away, mostly to make it less likely to get busted on the draw.

[Sixby]

Diaphram puncture equals dead animal., They cannot create the vaccum needed to inflate the lungs when the diaphragm is broken.
I'm not going to say how many animals I have killed in 57 years of bowhunting but I love the quartering away shot above any other. Put an arrow behind the rib cage at a 45 and you have an animal that is going in the freezer.
BTw I have had a small puncture in my diaphragm and it is unbelieveable painful and so difficult to breath. I cannot imagine any animal making any distance at all with an arrow through the diaphragm and whatever else it takes out past that. Anyway every  one I ever hit like that fed my family.

God bless you all, Steve

[pdk25]

Sorry Steve, but you are misjudging how much of an effect this has on overall lung function.  In fact, in motor vehicle accidents a potential emergency is diaphragmatic rupture.  This can be a true emergency as the contents of the abdomen can herniate into the chest cavity and pinch of the vascular supply to the bowel or internal organs.  Also, if there is enough mass effect it can cause cardiac output problems and certainly causes shortness of breath.  Smaller hernias frequently go undiagnosed and the patient may find out years later, or never.  I am sorry about your hernia, but literally thousands of people are walking around with holes in their diaphragm larger than what would be put in with a broadhead.  It is not the diaphragm injury that is doing the killing.  Certainly isn't helping matters, though.

[Pheonixarcher]

A deer that has a hole in both lungs will die. I don't think anyone can argue that. But the adrenalin rush or flight response can produce different results in each individual situation. This is the exact reason why some people have witnessed a double-lunged deer travel more than 150 yards after the hit (or a heart shot for that matter). Of course this is not the norm, but it has been known to happen. I myself, have had a double-lunged deer travel close to 100 yards. I've also had them drop in less than 30!  My point is each scenario is different. Take the best shot that is offered, and don't always wait for a 'better' shot, when a perfectly lethal shot presents itself. I have been bitten more than once thinking I would get the more 'preferred' shot.
I'm not sure about the diaphragm theory, but I know that a liver & one lung will cause a lot of blood loss, a quick kill, and a good blood trail (providing there are two holes). I think my shortest recoveries, statistically speaking, have been from this shot.
A few things that I try to keep in mind when shooting at game  is: two holes are better than one, a low hit is always better than a high hit (unless its so low that it misses the vitals or target completely, in which case the animal has a very good chance of surviving; so aim low!), and pick a spot aiming for the exit hole.
 There are so many things that can go wrong, and usually do, so we need to try and keep it as simple as possible, and have fun while we're at it. That's part of what makes bowhunting so great.

[todd smith]

If I understand it correctly - if the diaphragm is compromised, it can lead to a pneumothorax and hemothorax condition.  (Pneumo = air) (hemo - blood)

Even if a lung is not punctured, allowing air, blood, or both to enter the cavity will put pressure on the lungs - but unless at least one of them is punctured, I'm not sure how much good this will do in aiding the speed of death.

Close as I can come to answering your question.

That being said, I have never compromised the diaphragm without puncturing at least one lung - that I know of...    

[tracker12]

Originally posted by pdk25:
I promise you that the hole punched in the diaphragm is not what is causing your improved results.  A healthy animal can function with just one lung and the hole provided by a broadhead will not completely destroy the function of that hemidiaphragm.  Any improved results are from other factors in play.

I'm all in with this remark.

[ChuckC]

Seems to me..On the other (gut)side of the diaphragm is essentially another closed system.  A hole in the chest wall is open directly to the outside, allowing air directly into the chest. A pair (lungs) usually trump a lung and a liver in terms of quick death.  A full house (two lungs and a heart or major heart blood vessels) might be best of all.  Good luck on a Ace high four of a kind. .
ChuckC

ChuckC