Lets talk Catskills, NY bowhunting: Antler Restriction

[halfseminole]

Generally, I shoot does.  I can't eat antler.  I can make knives and stuff from it, but I can use a set so far you wouldn't believe it.  So does put more meat in the freezer to me.

We have a very nice 10 point in the area.  Some mornings I step out as he's slipping back into the woods.  I just raise my coffee cup to him.  If he's made it that far, I'm not bothering him.  Especially when there are so many does out there that I have to run them out of my blackberries and such.

[Jeff Strubberg]

My issue with antler restrictions is twofold:

1.  Antler restrictions do not produce healthy deer herds because they do not address buck to doe ratios.

2.  Antler restrictions might prevent shooting immature bucks, but they also prevent culling trash racks.  We have had a four on a side restriction here for five years?  We are seeing more club racks and racks without eye guards point just because that what is out there breeding.

In a lot of ways, earn a buck makes more sense than an antler restriction.  What I mean by that is that you must first take and check a doe before your buck tag is valid.  Meat hunters are forced to cull does instead of young bucks and the buck to doe ratio improves in he process.  This assumes, of course, that you have a lot of deer.

[sweet old bill]

I support quality deer management. But still not seeing a lot of bucks due to how many can be taken. I would rather go back to take one buck period, you chose to take it with a gun, BP, compound bow, traditional bow and or even a cross bow.

[woodchucker]

Well said Charlie!!!!! I raise my glass to ya Brother!!!!!

I've said for years, That antler restrictions only insure that the spikes get to do most of the breading... The first legal buck that's steps in front of "most" gun hunters is dead!!! More does for the little guys,when they catch up to them.....

But heck... Nobody listens to an old woodchucker.....

[BANNOCK-.PT]

Like the way mr. Wensel puts it in the video primal dreams, "Don't pick the fruit before its ripe"!
Unless of course alot of Ny hunterd  here really are that worried that if they don't kill that immature buck that their neighbors will. Aren't us trad guys at least a little more prone to putting limitations on ourselves already anyway? Crossbows and rifles might ensure yourselves of letting no immature deer slip through your spot?  I'm not telling anyone they cannot  do anything thats legal in their area. If it's legal and thats what you choose to do then so be it. However , I definitely  wouldn't complain if more guys jumped on the bandwagon and let the little guys grow up.

[ron w]

Just to put things in perspective.....I wonder how many hunters that are pro AR have ever hunted a whole season without seeing a deer, buck or doe. I know that I have done it many times, a few times back to back years. Makes my chances to get a shot very dear to me and I want to be able to do so when I can.......No matter if it's spike, a doe or a 130 class buck! Even the areas I hunt in the southern zone have the same deer densities as the Adirondacks so I treasure shot opportunities.

[woodchucker]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Ron!!!!!

Many hunters have no idea what it's like to go days, weeks, sometimes YEARS, without even seeing a deer!!! (and how many of those hunters, would still be hunting, if they had to???)

[huntmaster70]

If its legal & I feel I want it (even a spike)I'll shoot it.If someone wants to pass bucks up waiting for what ever they feel is a trophy to them, its their choice. To alot of us its not about the rack.

[PAstickshin]

For me personally its been a great thing for PA, like some others have said it may be tough for a few years. In 5 years when your in the woods seeing 8 and 10 point bucks you'll appreciate it. Until then it may be discouraging, but hang in there!!!

[wetfeathers]

Well said Ron.  I'm fortunate to see deer regularly,  But my preferred style of hunting from the ground with no blind limits me to very few shot opportunities.  If I had to wait for a trophy buck every year, my family would be mighty hungry come winter.

[sweet old bill]

I sure have, never saw anything but mom doe's with fawns and spike or small 4 points bucks. I am sick of the brown is down and then lets see if we tag it during the gun season. I like the idea of AR and hope it will provide for bigger bucks. But I still like more take a buck of any size and that it for the year, But just one, take it with bow, gun or cross bow, but just one.

[NOMAD88]

-I have found that if you want to kill big bucks you have to let them grow up.
-If you want to increase opportunity at a deer, shorten the gun season in your state.
-If you want bigger bucks without AR, limit bucks to one per person per year and your trophy hunters will become much more selective letting the wee ones grow up and achieving better quality bucks at the same time.Increase the number of doe permits
-IMO

[grouseshooter002]

I believe that each part of NYS is different in deer density and sex ratio. With that being said my area's sex ratio is way out of balance. I keep track of 12.5 miles of back roads around my property and have counted as many as 48 doe and not one buck. I would like to see the state require that each hunter  kill one doe before he or she can get a buck tag then also include another doe tag.

Regards,
Grouse

[KentuckyTJ]

Believe me the one buck limit works and works very well. When we adopted that it drastically improved our buck ratios. Best change our state agency has ever made, IMO.

My Dad strongly opposed the rule change but now agrees that it was a good change. When he last hunted a few years back he liked seeing three good bucks in one day on average.

It does take a few years but once the guys that oppose it are seeing more and better bucks when they hunt there isn't much opposition.

[KentuckyTJ]

Originally posted by ron w:
Just to put things in perspective.....I wonder how many hunters that are pro AR have ever hunted a whole season without seeing a deer, buck or doe. I know that I have done it many times, a few times back to back years. Makes my chances to get a shot very dear to me and I want to be able to do so when I can.......No matter if it's spike, a doe or a 130 class buck! Even the areas I hunt in the southern zone have the same deer densities as the Adirondacks so I treasure shot opportunities.

Ron, I say this in all respect and do not mean to be confrontational by any means but I have seen you post that you haven't killed a deer in something like 17 years of trying. And now reading that you have hunted entire seasons without seeing a single deer I would really like to know how come you wouldn't want to do anything possible to try and change that and be successful?

[ron w]

LOL....your close TJ, it's not 17 years, my last shot was it 71', yes 1971. The only thing I can think of to change that would be to move. And I do plan to move to Georgia in the not to distant future. I live where I live, I hunt public land because it's available. I have been hunting a small piece of property with ADK ken and my sightings have improved....but not that much. Last year I hunted in a bow only zone in the burbs' and saw more deer that I have in a long time. But it's not like hunting to me, or at least what I like and I have to travel over an hour  to get there. So I don't know how I could change anything.....other than moving.

[WTM45]

NYS gun IS only one buck.  Archery and Muzzleloader gives one either sex tag.  The other tag is antlerless.  When one looks at the actual numbers, it is not the folks taking more than one buck by using multiple weapons that is making the greatest impact.  It has much more to do with what the vast majority of NYS gun hunters are doing with their single tag.  And, their doe management permits.  The situation is so varied by region it is a difficult challenge to manage the entire state.

Imput is not only heard from hunters, but from farmers (commercial ones too), insurance companies, landowners and yes, tourism.
One would be suprised to know who's voices are being heard at the table.

[ron w]

In some areas nuisance permits are misused also....Hunters are not allowed on but sharpshooters are allowed to shoot any deer that shows it's face.

[LittleBen]

These are all good points, and very interesting to read and consider.

I hadn't really considered the thought of "earning" your first buck by first shooting a doe. This would be an interesting idea.

I do fear however that alot of areas in NYS already have fairly low deer numbers and shooting so many does by gun hunters would have serious impacts on the total deer numbers.

I do personally try and let all the spikes  and younger bucks walk, but the unfortunate reality is that I'm affected more by what others do than what I do.

I also admit, I've not had many seasons where I don't at least see a decent buck (8pt+), and very rarely a season without a shot on at least a 6pt. So maybe I'm biased towards antler restriction because I'm not suffering.

Just for the record for those whoa re not NY hunters or residents and not familiar with the tag system ...
You CAN get:

1 buck tag for gun season,
1 either sex muzzleloading/bow
1 doe muzzleloading/bow
2 DMP (doe) tags (dependent on lottery)
AND if you're on LI, 2 does earns another buck
AND unlimited doe tags on LI (they'll keep giving you more if you bring in the doe's head)

So I think most only get 2 bucks at most, and probably only 5% of guys actually kill 2 a season. I'd be only 30% of tag holders get ANY buck.

[NOMAD88]

I have hunted a few different states and was fortunate enough to see a lot of deer in every state.
NY it seems to me, doesn't want the deer population to grow.., or predators and food supply keep the population down. IMO a change in laws backed with research from other states can't hurt NYS. It's worth a try in the areas where the deer heard is low in population.