Lets talk Catskills, NY bowhunting: Antler Restriction

[Stumpknocker]

(Note to self, think before you post....)  

My issue is not really about shooting 6pts vs. 10's, it's about shooting non-cull spikes, year old bucks, and yearling does.  

First off, deer herds need managing.   The State doesn't always get it right, but the days of Darwinian species balance are no more.   I am in favor of AR standards.  Shooting little bucks is not a big whoop. Conversely, you can't eat horns.  There is nothing wrong with herd management being part of hunting.  

AR standards should apply to all ages.  Kids shouldn't be taught that killing a yearling is an accomplishment.  Counting coup and letting one walk is also a good lesson to teach.  Perhaps one of the best.

If killing deer is the most important thing, then hunt with a compound or a rifle.  I keep deer in the freezer, but don't hunt for the killing. If I did, I would be looking through a Zeiss scope and not over a bow.

If your family is hungry, you probably are better off finding other ways to feed them than hunting, esp. with a stickbow.  

Just because you hunted hard all season or only got to hunt three days doesn't give you extra credit to shoot x or y type of animal.  

I own my own land, and worked hard for it.  It is not high fenced.  My actions and those of my neighbors affect the local deer population.  I should not be able to kill what I want to just because I own the land.  I don't own the deer.

I'll stop there before I poke too many sticks in this ant bed.

[tradlab]

Stumpknocker has it right.No individual owns the deer , they belong to the state and it should be the DEC's responsibility to produce the best resource possible  ie a healthy deer population with good age structure .Their hunting regulations should reflect that goal and they have every right to tell us what we can and cannot shoot and when we can shoot them, and they do, our current antler restriction in most of the state is a three inch spike  on one side .Generally there is an inverse relationship between the number of hunters in a state and the length of the firearms season yet NY does the opposite.We have one of the highest number of deer hunters and one of the longest firearms seasons in the nation.Couple this with a 2 buck limit and most yearlings are toast. I find passing up bucks and observing and filming their behavior and movement patterns with todays small camcorders that fit in a pocket to be very rewarding and often reveal  subtleties in terrain use ,individual behavior and timing we use to our advantage.My hunting partners and I have learned to relax and enjoy the show and have experienced the rewards.The first one's the hardest.

[Knawbone]

Stumpknocker, I agree with most of what you said. However, Not one responder to this thread has batted a thousand, you included as well as I. Allowing a teenager to shoot a yearling isn't teaching them contrary to good hunting ethic, the idea is to teach them all the responsebilities that go with making a chose and what needs to be done after a kill. The whole learning process is more important than WHAT buck is killed. He or she will have plenty of opportunities to count coup.

Anyone legally hunting has a right to arrow any Deer that person has a legal tag for. If I only get to hunt 3 days and I choose to shoot a legal spike or doe.........that's not extra credit!

Iv' eaten a lot of Doe tags the last 6 yrs. because I believed that was the best for my hunting area. I don;t shoot non cull spikes or four points, but if the guy hunting the State land next to my property wants too, and if he's playing by rules.....he has every right to.  

 Hopefully I haven;t mis read what you were saying, but that is how I see it.

[Stone Knife]

That's right we don't own the deer but the State does not own us either. If you want to shoot a big buck then pass the small ones but don't make everyone else do the same if they choose not too. I want to see whats going to happen to the deer herd when there are too many bucks after a long rut and a hard winter.

[Bladepeek]

I didn't see this post until way late in the game, but I'll throw in my $.02 worth.

I spent many years living in Germany, where the game is very professionally managed. I loved hunting there, but have to admit that hunting in Germany is somewhat an elitist sport available only to the relatively well heeled and very dedicated. All that not withstanding, I saw deer herds managed at a nearly 1 to 1 ratio - bucks to does. This provides huntable bucks without a lot of crop damage in a very densely populated country.

I think Michigan is probably more like a 1 to 10 or worse ratio. We stack the deer like cord wood on the roads of the lower part of the state. The deer herd is grossly overpopulated, but just increasing the kill count does nothing to reduce the size of the herd if more bucks are taken than does. Michigan has a two buck limit, but has just passed new regulations for antler restrictions. I would like to see our DNR go even farther and make a second buck tag available only after a doe is taken.

For some of us, one doe would be enough venison (my wife will absolutely not eat Bambi, although she has no trouble eating Thumper). For those with larger families to feed, a second doe and a buck would probably do the trick. If not, then a 3rd doe until the herd comes into better alignment.

Sure, we all get excited over a big rack, but I get a real kick out of stalking up to bow range of a deer of either sex. Doe venison tastes every bit as good as that from a buck and I think we need to alter the mentality that only bucks should be killed. This was necessary when the whitetail had nearly died out from over-hunting, but in those areas where the deer population has more than recovered, let's let the biologists create a balanced herd without a lot of screaming that hunter's rights are being trampled.

We are spending our DNR funds to hire qualified wildlife biologists. Let's let them do their job and prove their qualifications. For some areas (the Upper Peninsula in MI) that may mean a reduced take over all and for other areas a much heavier take of does while allowing the bucks to develop to at least 2-year olds.

[Izzy]

I think this thread would be a whole lot more interesting and productive if it was spoken around a camp fire but in this format it just gets too emotional. I like a lot of the points expressed here and only a few have been subjective.

       From reading all of the posts the one thing I see missing is the idea managing deer for the overall health of the habitat they populate and more call to manage for "Quality" deer. All deer are quality to me and I feel that killing a yearling buck is an accomplishment, even after killing over 100 deer with all manners of weapons.

        My favorite point that Ive seen made in this thread is that each hunter should kill what he wants within their legal boundaries. If you dont want to kill young ones, keep letting them go but when the fella on the next ridge does, well,,,, you had your opportunity and let it go. Try and come to terms with it.

        I have seen from experience that that one guy who lets a forky go does make a difference even if the deer is killed later on. The killing of that deer by the next guy save the forky that was coming from the opposite direction right? Keep at it and do your thing, it just irritates me when people push their agenda with emotion.Ill keep on hunting for what floats my boat and not to prove myself to anyone with a big rack on the wall. Im running out of wall space anyway.  

[Knawbone]

Good summery Izzy.

[Stone Knife]

Yes Izzy well put.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Good points Izzy and Ron. One large problem is, everyone is coming at this debate with different local experiences relative to deer numbers and herd health.  

I think we can all agree that a properly managed deer herd is Most important.  I think the larger issue people have is how to get there.  I also tend to think people have lost trust in the state to manage the deer heard properly.  Unfortunately due to budget cuts, Biologists have less tools to dictate herd size.  15 years ago, they used to go afield and do counts, tests and studies to help with deer census.  Now they rely on math equations, hunter reports, motorist collisions and a panel of biased or unbiased members.  The problem is Biologists are not able to do a good job.

I hate to change the subject and I know some of my info is subject to debate but I feel that if we had a healthy deer herd all over, hunters would be more content in general.

[Bobaru]

Guess I can't get into the mind set of AR so that people can increase their probability of getting a 10 point.  I started hunting behind the house in 1966 when the total deer take in NY State was 70,000.  Now the total deer take goes between 225,000 and 300,000.  So, when I compare my original opportunities with opportunities today, I feel blessed.  And, if I want to shoot a 10 point, my solution set wouldn't be to have the DEC jury-rig the system to favor me.  No, my solution would be to work a little harder.  But, that's just me.  You all are welcome to different opinions.  No sense getting emotional on this subject as far as I can see.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by Bobaru:
Guess I can't get into the mind set of AR so that people can increase their probability of getting a 10 point.  I started hunting behind the house in 1966 when the total deer take in NY State was 70,000.  Now the total deer take goes between 225,000 and 300,000.  So, when I compare my original opportunities with opportunities today, I feel blessed.  And, if I want to shoot a 10 point, my solution set wouldn't be to have the DEC jury-rig the system to favor me.  No, my solution would be to work a little harder.  But, that's just me.  You all are welcome to different opinions.  No sense getting emotional on this subject as far as I can see.

You nailed it. I know of many hunters who consistently  kill big bucks right here and everywhere else where there are a lot of folks stating that big bucks arent there. And when big bucks do get killed there its always "AHHHH They Just Got Lucky." I dont believe its luck. These big buck killers are the guys that take 2 months off of work, dont spend time with their families if they still have them, skip watching football and just about everything else but hunting the bigguns. Like I said before, theyre everywhere throughout the state, in every region. No they dont give up easy at all and the price to kill one is hunting a lot harder than the methods you use to kill yearlings and 2 1/2 year olds. When a man understands that mature deer and immature deer are like 2 different species and still has the drive to hunt them as such he will start to see that they are in his woood lot too.

[WTM45]

AMEN!

[IndianaBowman]

I hear "I got MY buck" way too often. This just irks me as it is NOT your buck until you kill and properly tag it. There seems to be a huge amount of pressure for hunters to "get their buck" and then brag about it. This causes many hunters to shoot any buck just so they can say they got their buck. It's the culture around where I hunt. There is never any talk of how the hunt went, was it taken fairly, or did you enjoy your time afield. It is always about killing something. I live with about 700 acres of woods right behind my house and I rarely even hunt it because the owners (who are great guys and let me hunt it)have the "kill anything" mentality. There has not been a deer over 1.5 killed on the property in the 7 years I've lived there. This is the situation that could benefit from AR. We need something to break the "kill it at all costs" culture. Those who would prefer to hunt mature deer simply don't get a chance because the army of drivers and shooters kill everything with a semblence of bone on its head. NY also seems to have a very liberal way of interpreting bag limits. MANY of the hunters I've talked with have no problem filling tags on other's license. Just seems to be an acceptable practice??? I know the DMP permits are transferrable, but not the general buck tags etc.

[Wapiti Chaser]

There is nothing that gets under my skin like people filling other peoples buck tags. One buck should be enough if you need more venison there are always does. There are many people that know I hunt and my feelings and won't tell me the truth about filling others buck tags. They know I will turn them in family or not. One young man this year was bragging about the two 1 1/2 year old eight pointers he shot with his bow in first two weeks. I email his father a copy of the encon law and let him know how I felt. This put a stop to it.

[tradlab]

I agree with  both wapiti chaser and indiana bowman. My best hunting buddy lives in Delaware county but comes up to central NY to deer hunt because a 2.5 yr old buck is a rare site there...poaching, road hunting, multiple permit filling,and nuisance permit abuse is rampant.He knew one individual that killed four yearling bucks and one 2.5 yr old last year.On one farm last year they shot a 15in wide 2.5 yr. old and it was the biggest buck they ever shot on the farm and  the farm has been in the family for decades.These same people complain that they want to shoot a decent but can't let one go by without shooting at it even though they have a freezer full of beef.It's essential that they can tell everyone that they got their deer .I've worked with my neighbors to resolve these problems by rescinding permission to hunt and having the police visit a few people and it's made a difference.

[ron w]

The last 3 posts are exactly why AR won't work here in New York. Even in areas where it is already going on, the mentality of some won't let it happen. It's like it's bred into them to get as many as they can and use tags over again. I know most guys around me never report a kill....and never will. It is a shame.......I taught Bow hunters safety for 15 years and the kids always would comment, that's not how my Dad or Uncle or Grandpa does it when we would work on the ethics part of the program. But we tried to steer them to the right path!

[Knawbone]

My 75 acres is surrounded by 3,000 acres of state land that gets hunted by the brown it's down crowd every year. I know some of these guys, and there not bad guys, ( most of them ) but they hunt for a couple of week ends and Thanksgiving day, shoot the spikes, forkies, and Does and call it a season. But thats just on my side of the hill. The same thing is going on the other side of the hill as well. Two years ago I ran in to one of my neighbors while I was putting a tag on 2 1/2 yr. old buck with 16 in. spread. He looked down at it and said " wow i didn't think there were any bucks like that on this hill." I said, Once in a while you can find one or two. And that's the truth. My point is, if there were any Monster bucks around, I would know about it. I make it my buisness to know. Iv' hunted this area for over 15 yrs. now. I know many people that live and work here and if there were any notable Bucks, I would here about it, see it, or find sign of them. There was one one year that was a very decent racked buck (140 maybe) and iv' seen a respectable 10 point that I guessed at 3 1/2 years old, but other than that. The big boys just aren't here.

 Now don't get me wrong, I have some good deer hunting here, but for you guys that say that there are trophy deer everywhere...........ahhhhhhh not always. I have yet to see one come off this hill that weighed more than 160 lbs.  So I'll keep searching threw out the year and hunting hard for whats here. Maybe One of these years I'll have a monster to hunt.

[Bladepeek]

Ron W.   "The last 3 posts are exactly why AR won't work here in New York."

Ron, I think you nailed it solidly. Education is the cure to the problem and that usually takes 2 - 3 generations. There was a valid reason for the "bucks only" system, but that time is past. There was a time when the only red meat people could afford was what they poached. I don't buy that any more. Guys think nothing of spending $500 - $1500 on a bow/rifle, but won't spend the money for a license until they have brown on the ground. They're big into recycling of tags, and say things like "Hey, they're my deer. I fed them with my crops all year".

 I have some family members and friends who know how I feel. We don't argue about it, but I've declined to hunt on a friends farm who was putting out a semi-load of corn and carrots every year when Michigan had a baiting ban in place. His favorite saying is "He with the biggest bait pile wins", and he shoots 3 - 4 mature bucks/year. He wouldn't shoot a doe if it had a broken leg.

You can't change that mentality, but we can work on their offspring and try to instill some hunting ethics that may get passed on down the line.

[Mint]

I see it on Long island too, basically you can shoot unlimited does since once you fill a doe tag they will give you another tag that is good for a buck or doe. Sadly these guys will shoot a doe to get another buck tag and then shoot a little fork horn or spike instead of taking another doe.

 I will say though it is changing but very slowly.

[Stone Knife]

They might be hungry