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Author Topic: How fast is fast?  (Read 5408 times)

Online Jim Wright

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2013, 09:55:00 AM »
I have not followed this thread until this AM and just read all 7 pages. As in similar ones before, there are a number of results in f.p.s. posted that exceed anything ever obtained in professionally conducted tests such as those done by Blackie Schwartz for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. It might be interesting if someone would do a "fastest chronograph" review and posted the results.

Offline michigan bill

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2013, 12:06:00 PM »
you guys wanna see "fast?"
check out the Black Swan web site.
 www.blackswanarchery.com  

295 fps is FAST!

bill
I'm just happy to be here!

Offline pamike

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2013, 12:51:00 PM »
Jim see my head to head test.  Not perfect but real numbers from hunt ready bows and exact arrow weights for bow weight and draw length.
HABU Vyperkahn
Elk master
Hill Country Bobcat

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2013, 01:52:00 PM »
With any choice of a bow, I prefer longbows or at least bows that point like a Hill style longbow, the fastest one is always fun. However, the interesting posts that break down the arrows arrival times I find most interesting. I have a couple of longbows that are very fast and they shoot nice with arrows that are 500 grains to 545 grains, which is 8.2 grains per pound to about 8.5 grains per pound. Pass throughs on whitetails with all of these bows has been nearly a given. With all of these faster bows, my point on varies just a few yards, 51 to 54 yards, the with my current form no matter which arrow is being used.  Apparently, the arrival times of the arrow is very close, even with the 50 grains of arrow weight difference. The post about his game moving on the shot and getting his miss that was not a matter of arrow speed, rings very true for me. I had a deer at 35 yards do a complete end to end turn and departure, which put the arrow past his tail. I know the shot was on I got a glimpse of it just above where I wanted it to hit in flight. From that glimpse to the deer, the deer spun and moved out of the way. That bow was tested at 245 fps, it was a compound, and I could consistantly shoot apple sized groups at that range. The deer had looked at me a few seconds earlier and then ignored me, I was on the ground. What made me miss that deer was time and sound. It took too much time to get the bow on target and the bow made to much sound. If I could have gotten the shot off smoother and faster with a quieter bow I would have had the buck. For me, being a ground hunter, over the years I have found that game can detect the slightest motions and will react in about the same amount of time whether I take a very slow shot or a quicker and smoother fast shot. I love fast bows, but slight speed differences make no difference if the game is gone when the arrow gets there. A smooth quick shot and a silent bow makes up for a lot of speed. If one goes for a stiff exagerated form to get a longer draw that also makes taking a hunting shot more difficult, just for a bit more speed, it may cost him some meat in the freezer. Going for speed is fun, going for heavy shaft penetration is fun, however, I would hope that this thread does not lead some to think that they are completely out of the game because they are not set up to  get blinding arrow speed with super heavy shafts. The middle of road is still a good place to be.

Online Jim Wright

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2013, 06:08:00 PM »
Mike, I was certainly not singling out your numbers and I was quite serious about comparing some chronographs. I suspect there is a fair bit of variation due to lighting, manufacturing tolerances etc.. Back to your results however, I suggest that since you have a clicker you should post results obtained at the standard 28" of draw instead of your quite long 30".

Offline jonsimoneau

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2013, 07:01:00 PM »
I would never buy a bow because it is 5 or 10 fps. faster than another bow. Accuracy at hunting ranges is my number one concern.  So I'm looking for the bow I can personally shoot the best.  If it is faster than average then that is just icing on the cake.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2013, 07:36:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jim Wright:
I have not followed this thread until this AM and just read all 7 pages. As in similar ones before, there are a number of results in f.p.s. posted that exceed anything ever obtained in professionally conducted tests such as those done by Blackie Schwartz for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. It might be interesting if someone would do a "fastest chronograph" review and posted the results.
A number of the bows that have been refereed to in this post HAVE been professionally tested using very precise grain scales on arrow shafts. and exact draw lengths using a digital micormeter & run through two separate chronographs.... not only have these bows been professionally tested, there are high speed video clips available showing the limbs in slow motion.....

 

Here are a bunch of high speed videos you can look at.

 


 
Quote
Originally posted by michigan bill:
you guys wanna see "fast?"
check out the Black Swan web site.
 www.blackswanarchery.com  

295 fps is FAST!

bill
Those numbers were "IBO" numbers... IBO requires a minimum of 5 grains per pound.... we are testing at 9 & 10 GPP which is what an average hunter uses on a Trad bow.... a lot of guys use heavier arrows than that too.


 
Quote
Originally posted by heartlandbowyer:
Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys.

Thanks,
Cory
Hey Cory,  You didn't kick a hornets nest at all. You just have to learn how to take a lot of these posts with a grain of salt... There are a lot of guys that value their Traditional equipment for different reasons and just feel more confident with gear that stays within their comfort level. regardless of the next generation of higher performance bows available now and coming out more and more every year, some guys just feel better sticking with what they are used to.....I can respect that.


The guys that say faster bows with higher efficiency are harder to shoot need to be ignored completely..... If these same guys would just bring their arrow weight up to what makes them feel comfortable they would find these higher performance bows fly with a flatter trajectory and hit harder than the slower ones do.... But that's fine bro....we can't win over all the guys that continue to say "speed doesn't kill", or "speed doesn't matter"... they get their share of game and are happy.... what is that old quote about "ignorance is bliss"..... You just keep building the highest performance, smooth shooting bow you can. There are plenty of archers out there that really do appreciate the extra effort you make.

There are not a lot of bowyer's  willing to stick their neck out about performance on the archery forums. The actual speeds from identical bows vary a lot depending on materials and draw weights. As much as i would love to do it, i cannot guarantee all my bows are going to ring the bell at 200 fps.

but here is a fact for you as a bowyer.... if you continue to try to refine the little things to increase limb stability, smooth out the draw cycle, and eliminate all the vibration and hand shock you can after the shot.... The speed and efficiency will increase proportionately. If you want to push the envelope after that, you need to use a shooting machine with your chrono testing to monitor your gains. I've found the use of high speed video can be helpful when studying pre-load levels at different brace height, and how to go about getting the limbs stopping clean with minimal limb bulge.....There is a lot to this stuff bro.... Kirk

Offline heartlandbowyer

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »
Kirk, thanks for all your input. I will continue to strive to be a better bowyer. I learned some valuable info from you and Steve on the thread, and I'll take any info I can get especially when I don't have anyone close to learn from.

Cory

Offline ishoot4thrills

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2013, 10:25:00 PM »
Kirk,

The more I read your posts, the more I like what you say.

I find that many people get "speed" and "efficiency" confused. I can take any old bow and make it shoot fast by using a dangerously lightweight arrow. Now, if I take a highly efficient, high performance, great shooting bow, I can shoot lightweight arrows and get fast speeds. Or, as I prefer, I can choose to shoot moderate to relatively heavy weight arrows in the same bow and get better results than I would with a less efficient, poor performing bow. Just because I may shoot a high performance bow doesn't mean I have to shoot high speed arrows.

One doesn't have to be a "speed freak" in order to enjoy or "covet" high performance, efficient bows, even if that bow is, gulp, Heaven forbid, a trad bow.   ;)
58" JK Traditions Kanati Longbow
Ten Strand D10 String
Kanati Bow Quiver
35/55 Gold Tip Pink Nugents @ 30"
3 X 5" Feathers
19.9% FOC
49# @ 26.75"
165 FPS @ 10.4 GPP (510 gr. hunting arrow)
171 FPS @ 9.7 GPP (475 gr. 3D arrow)
3 Fingers Under

Offline heartlandbowyer

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2013, 10:45:00 PM »
Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles  and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?

Cory

Offline heartlandbowyer

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2013, 10:50:00 PM »
Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles  and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?

Cory

Offline old_goat2

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2013, 11:16:00 PM »
Yeah, my take on these highly efficent bows is I bought one and dropped several pounds in draw weight and am shooting the same arrow that used to be 10gpp and now it's about 11 to 11.5 gpp and shooting it just a few fps faster. I shoot better longer and it's still not insanely fast, but it's still faster than most because of my monkey armed 31" draw.
David Achatz
CPO USN Ret.
Various bows, but if you see me shooting, it's probably a Toelke in my hand!

Offline duncan idaho

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #112 on: July 01, 2013, 12:57:00 AM »
Great post , Kirk.

IMHO: without you and other cutting edge bowyers, constantly pushing the "speed factor", in developing more high performance bows, then we would not be enjoying the tremendous amount of high performance bows that we can choose from today.
" If wishes were fishes, we would all cast nets".

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #113 on: July 01, 2013, 02:12:00 AM »
Thanks Bill, I appreciate that...    :)    


 
Quote
Originally posted by heartlandbowyer:
Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles  and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?

Cory
Yup... i use that to mount prototype limbs at any pad angle i want from flat to 35 degrees, and go from 12" to 22" riser length.... It works pretty slick for fine tuning your pre-load without using shims.

here's a better picture of it. i use a mill for boring my TD hardware.

 

 


Trying to get the same performance out of the same identical set of limbs with different riser lengths and over all bow length can be tough to pull off.  Often times a slightly different pad angle can make a huge difference in the stacking point as well as damping.  Kirk

Offline heartlandbowyer

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #114 on: July 01, 2013, 09:01:00 AM »
Kirk,
That is a sweet jig, I would really like to get a mill but its a bit out of my price range right now, unless I could find a used one cheep then maybe.

I have found too that a degree or less can change a bow totally so that riser jig would be prefect. I might have to find a machinist and see what it would cost to make one.

Cory

Offline cbCrow

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #115 on: July 01, 2013, 07:05:00 PM »
I maybe blissfully ignorant and my info maybe skewed according to some but if you read my first post it contained a question/ statement that no one including 2 bowyers and quite a bit of others have not answered  : at 15yds(avg hunting/killing distance) what does it matter if your bow is 160fps or 190fps when their is only 4/100's of a second involved in difference? By the way the drops stated earlier were way off. It would take approx. 35yds distance to reach close to a full second of time. What say ye all?

Offline Hoyt

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2013, 07:17:00 PM »
From all these posts about how fast a deer can move out of the way of an arrow at even 15'..I'd say 4/100's of a second may be a long time for a deer.

Offline pamike

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2013, 07:22:00 PM »
You just can't help but learn from these guys.....
HABU Vyperkahn
Elk master
Hill Country Bobcat

Offline heartlandbowyer

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2013, 07:42:00 PM »
Charles, I think on a calm animal and a great shot it probably doesn't matter. But if I miss my spot by 3 inches or the animal flinches etc and I hit shoulder the extra kinetic would probably help my arrow through the bone and possibly through the far side which would give me a higher percentage of a good blood trail and recovery.

If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 160fps ke = 31.27
If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 190fps ke = 44.1

Heck I don't know maybe the KE don't matter that much but why not shoot the more efficient bow especially if the bow is a great shooter with extra speed.

Cory

Offline michigan bill

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Re: How fast is fast?
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2013, 08:54:00 PM »
the following numbers were in one of the bowhunting magazines some years back.

Shooting an "average speed" hunting arrow at 175 fps results in the following:

if a deer is 10 yards away and looking at you when you shoot it can duck 3 inches.  if it is not looking at you (at 10 yards) it can duck 2 inches.

if a deer is 15 yards away and looking at you when you shoot it can duck 8 inches.  if it is not looking at you (at 15 yards) it can duck 6 inches.

that should about settle all questions, eh?

bill      :goldtooth:
I'm just happy to be here!

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