How fast is fast?

[LBR]

I'm sure this has all been talked about many times, but how fast is fast. Is a bow that shoots 180fps w/ 10 gpp pulled to 28" with finger release considered fast?  

It all depends on what you are comparing.  That is smoking fast with a selfbow, and is very respectable (real world) speed with a longbow or recurve.  Compared to wheels, it's a slug.

 

I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.  

Don't take this the wrong way, but statements like the above just confuse me.  Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?  

To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?

Like someone else mentioned earlier in the thread (sorry, I can't remember who and I don't want to go back and look), I must be using the wrong chronographs.  Mine and the umpteen others I've used over the years don't show anything close to the speeds I've seen reported.  Haven't seen any independent professional test results that did either. If you want to talk "AMO" (or IBO?  I get them crossed up) speed (5 gpp drawn to 30"), breaking 200 fps with a longbow is no great feat.  I've seen 232 fps with a longbow pulled to 29", and it's not one who's claim to fame is speed.  

The main difference in accuracy with any bow is the variable pulling the string.  For me, if I'm buying a new bow the first thing I'm going to check out is the bowyer or company's reputation, the actual (written, not spoken) warranty,and if I've had personal dealings with the bowyer or rep. If my experience tells me I can't trust a bowyer or rep, I won't deal with them, period.

Anyhow,...back to the original question--it's all relative.  Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Pope & Young, etc. all killed tons of game--including some HUGE animals, and some of them also did some amazing trick shooting--with bows that shot so "slow" that some folks wouldn't even consider shooting them these days.  Funny huh?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yup.... and Fred Bear, Howard Hill, And Ben Pearson all worked their buns off trying to build bows with better performance too... Bear and Pearson went on to build compound bows....  Human Nature will always try to build a better mouse trap.... It's fun, and has its advantages.

Personally i like those old 32 Ford Vicky's with the Hemi and Flames running down the side...  

[LBR]

Bear and Pearson went on to build compound bows  

Yep--and why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?

Doesn't really matter--the point was they showed time and time again you don't need a bow that is pushing 200 fps to kill anything on the planet, or make amazing shots.

Hill didn't chase speed--he also proved that you can make amazing shots and kill anything that walks with a "slow" bow.

 

Personally i like those old 32 Ford Vicky's with the Hemi and Flames running down the side...

Don't see any of those where speed is the #1 priority either.

I don't have anything against a bow that performs well, but if speed were my #1 priority... obviously I'd follow the lead of Bear, Pearson, etc.

[gringol]

Everyone sets their own limits.  I personally don't care for carbon limbs and prefer longbows to recurves.  So, I don't shoot the fastest trad bows available, but within my parameters I prefer faster bows to slower ones.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?

Oh but they did brutha.... So did Black widow, Bob lee, A&H, Centaur, Dryad etc... etc... And... they continue to do so every year..... Do you have any idea how much money and time is invested by these companies developing new models and designs every year with better all around performance as their goal?  Higher performance means just that. Smoother draw, better stability, flatter trajectory, better penetration...

It's the individual archers preference whether he would rather use lighter weight shafts and get more speed, or use heavier shafts and get more power for less draw weight pulled.... the primary goal ISN"T SPEED here brutha... Speed is a means of measuring performance levels.... nothing more.

You are constantly looking for better string building materials to provide the best product for archers to use on their bows.... Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows.... we all roll with the flow, or get left in the wake to watch the others....  I say lets rock and roll!

[heartlandbowyer]

Amen brutha, anyone who takes self pride in there work is always trying to better himself/herself and their product. When you get to the point where you can't improve its time to take on another quest.

The part where ScouterMike points out that the arrows for olympic shooters speeds up towards the end of the 100 meter shots remnded me of a what a compound shooter said once. It makes perfect sense that those long shots with target arrows speed up as they start coming down. However, at one shoot two chronos were set up. They were complaining that they were reading some of the trad bows fast and all of the compounds slow. One compound fellow said that his bow was a lot faster than his numbers because, as he said, "Everyone knows that the arrow shot from a compound takes 20 yards or more to get up to full speed." I think had a bit of a stroke from laughing and I apologized for that. We must not forget that with this search for a faster bow that not all bows work the same for all people. As an example, I have had a couple of very fast target bows. they were great, but I could not ever rip off an accurate frantic fast shot like when I jump a pheasant and  rip one off with a longbow.  Some bows react more to shooter errors than others.  In real life we do not always have the time to cross our toes,curl the lip just right, and everything else just so to keep the bow happy.  Hopefully, with advancing bow designs that forgiveness and pointing ability will not be forgotten.  I suspect that is why so many are finding that is why they do best out hunting with Hill style longbows.  The combination of a very versatile form blended with a very versatile fast handling bow can be just the answer.  Now if we can have that and speed, that would be good. John Schulz could make a very fast bow and still stay within those parmeters, but he went back to a slower design and found that his shooting improved.

[Hoyt]

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[WTM45]

Velocity is a rather significant part of the kinetic energy equation.  How much energy is necessary to be successful is another discussion altogether.

[Hoyt]

Originally posted by Hoyt:
 

Originally posted by LBR:
 

I'm sure this has all been talked about many times, but how fast is fast. Is a bow that shoots 180fps w/ 10 gpp pulled to 28" with finger release considered fast?  

It all depends on what you are comparing.  That is smoking fast with a selfbow, and is very respectable (real world) speed with a longbow or recurve.  Compared to wheels, it's a slug.

   

I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.  

Don't take this the wrong way, but statements like the above just confuse me.  Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?  

To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?

Like someone else mentioned earlier in the thread (sorry, I can't remember who and I don't want to go back and look), I must be using the wrong chronographs.  Mine and the umpteen others I've used over the years don't show anything close to the speeds I've seen reported.  Haven't seen any independent professional test results that did either. If you want to talk "AMO" (or IBO?  I get them crossed up) speed (5 gpp drawn to 30"), breaking 200 fps with a longbow is no great feat.  I've seen 232 fps with a longbow pulled to 29", and it's not one who's claim to fame is speed.  

The main difference in accuracy with any bow is the variable pulling the string.  For me, if I'm buying a new bow the first thing I'm going to check out is the bowyer or company's reputation, the actual (written, not spoken) warranty,and if I've had personal dealings with the bowyer or rep. If my experience tells me I can't trust a bowyer or rep, I won't deal with them, period.

Anyhow,...back to the original question--it's all relative.  Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Pope & Young, etc. all killed tons of game--including some HUGE animals, and some of them also did some amazing trick shooting--with bows that shot so "slow" that some folks wouldn't even consider shooting them these days.  Funny huh? [/b]

You asked me "Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?"

Because I don't shoot "traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle in compounds. [/b]

[cbCrow]

Hoyt, could you explain your last comment, I don't quite know what you mean by that?

Three times is a charm?

[Hoyt]

cbCrow..I meant in my last couple of posts that I started out shooting recurves back in the 50's as a kid when everybody shot either self, long, recurve or cross bows.

The people I shot with shot recurves for hunting and Field Rounds. We were all looking for the newest bows to hit the market with the best speed and all around performance. "Traditional Archery" wasn't around back then..nor wheel bows..the people I knew shot aluminum arrows because they were better all around than the previous fiberglass and wood.

I didn't know anybody that wanted to go backwards in time and shoot slower arrows or bows all that came about with "Traditional" after compounds..in the circles I traveled anyway.

My point was when I said I don't shoot "Traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle of compounds was I'm into the same things now as I was when I started with recurves..the newest, fastest, best preforming bows out there. Foam, carbon, I don't care what it's made out of if I like the looks and feel. I don't romance the wood or get off on the smell of cedar, etc..just like recuves and not the compounds, releases, etc.

[cbCrow]

Thank you for the exlpanation, I started a little later then you back in the early 60's shooting a recurve also. Even then their always seemed to be a quest for more speed and I finally succumbed in the mid 70's and got myself a compound because it was the be all and end all of this quest, but only found more contention and different camps of archers trying to convince others there way was the way to true Nirvana. There came a point when I started to long for a simpler, quieter way and made the transition back to "traditional shooting" even though everyone thought I was nuts. I love this sport and will stride to shoot as long as I can and cherish every moment that I do. Their is something about the flight of an arrow that stirs a feeling of contentment in me and inner peace. I have been shooting Hill bows and their like for the last 30 yrs and they have suited me well, even though their not balls of fire in the speed dept, but just plain feel good in hand. I believe threads like this one are good things that help clear the air and let others judge for themselves. I stand by my statement about giving up a little speed if for no other reason but for those feelings I tried to describe.

[onewhohasfun]

Hey Scouter Mike, I have read that when you double the arrow weight you only lose half your velocity. Also a lighter projectile sheds its velocity faster.

Just wondered if your calculator reflects these two principles?

[dougbutt]

To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?
 

A better analogy is comparing nascar to formula 1.  A car competing in nascar cant compete in formula 1. That doesn't stop teams from trying to squeeze every mph out of their car. I've got two black widows and was planing on buying a third. But seeing the dedication kirk at bigfoot has to trying to make the best product he can has me considering to get on his waiting list.

[ScouterMike]

Originally posted by onewhohasfun:
Hey Scouter Mike, I have read that when you double the arrow weight you only lose half your velocity. Also a lighter projectile sheds its velocity faster.

Just wondered if your calculator reflects these two principles?

Well if you double the arrow weight out of a bow (this would be difficult as you would be using an arrow at least at one extreme that is way beyond the parameters the bow was designed for) then with the bow giving equal energy to both arrows (the heavier arrow will always have a little more energy) then the heavier arrow should have a velocity of about 70.5% (from the calculator or just back figuring using the KE formula) of the lighter arrow. I would not even begin to predict what would happen with arrow weights that far off design parameters though, I do not abuse bows to test.

A lighter projectile, all else being equal, will shed its velocity quicker than a heavier projectile.
For example if you screwed in a heavier point with the rest of arrow remaining the same and it was flying off the bow equally well then it would lose velocity at a slower rate but it would also start out slower. As a note from what I have researched and tested, unless you are talking about fluflu type fletching, the rate of velocity loss of traditional type arrows at normal velocities stays in a fairly tight window.

[LBR]

Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows

Get down to it, polyester bowstring will do the job just fine.  I'm constantly tinkering with strings looking for the best durability, stability, and consistency.  I'd happily use HMPE materials even if they were slower than polyester for these reasons.  The speed difference isn't huge either way.

Bear, Pearson, Allen, etc. built wheel bows for the same reason they are built today.  It was/is a business.  Speed doesn't kill, but it certainly sells.  Taking as much of the work out of it as you can sells.  That's why all the bell's and whistles are so popular.

There are plenty of areas to work on improving other than speed...things that really count...but they often get ignored.

 

Because I don't shoot "traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle in compounds.

Never understood why "traditional" is a dirty word when it comes to archery.  Either way, if speed/performance/whatever you want to call it is your #1 priority, then you won't be shooting a recurve--or any other traditional bow.

 

A car competing in nascar cant compete in formula 1.  

But we don't have separate seasons for wheels and sticks, so when it comes to hunting it is like souping up a lawnmower to compete in NASCAR.  You can have the fastest lawnmower around, you'll still get smoked on the track.  

Again, I have nothing against a fast bow, it's just not the "be-all-end-all" for a hunter or competitor.  I know guys that kill plenty of game with selfbows--lots more than a lot of others I know shooting the "fastest".  Same goes for competeing.  I've shot in multiple classes at some tournaments and my selfbow score (slowest) wound up being higher than my recurve score (fastest).  Go figure.

The OP ask "how fast is fast", and 180 fps is knocked back like your bow is sub-standard if it won't shoot any faster than that.  That's plain hogwash.  

As far as being able to drop down in weight...you can quickly and cleanly kill a deer pulling 25#--I know a young lady who have proven this several times, and it wasn't with the fastest bow on the market.  Didn't even have a "skinny" string.

Shoot what you like, but don't try to make the beginners that don't know any better feel like their equipment is crap because it's not burning the fletchings off every third shot.  As long as they do their part, even a "slow" bow will work just fine.

A deer doesn't care how fast the arrow is flying when it goes through his lungs...or over his back.

[ishoot4thrills]

LBR, you can kill a deer with a .22 long rifle but that doesn't mean you should use it to hunt with.  

I know for a fact that there are lots of people who build self bows that continuously try to improve the "cast"(another word for performance) of their primitive equipment by steam-shaping them into better performing bows. Nothing wrong with making improvements with the bows you love without going to wheels just to gain a little edge.

I've read through this entire thread and nowhere have I found where anybody has insinuated that low performing bows are crap. Those are your words only, bro.

[Sixby]

This is not a debate on slow vs fast. It is about fast bows. Someone brought debate to the table and it really harms the thread;.

No one has said speed is the only thing. In fact I harp on quietness, shootability, quality of build. grip ect all the time and so do many others. Performance is then entire bow. Speed is not subjective though. It is one area in which a basic portion of the bow performance can be tested and quantified scientificaly instead of subjectively or speculatively.

We are all individuals and sometimes we see things differently. However as a bowhunting brotherhood and trad equipment brotherhood we should be open to others likes and dislikes without condemning them.

We have within our ranks some who have quit hunting but still love to shoot trad equipment. We have self bow owners , builders, shooters. We have primitives. We have people that love ILFs and some who LOve fancy wood. We have those that are strictly Hill lovers and some who shoot D and R longbow and others shoot recurves. We have those that like top mount takedowns and those that like belly mount takedowns.
We have those that want the best and fastest . the entire package and others that could care less about that but want rough and tough that they can throw out of a tree stand or use for a walking stick.

So these are some of the differences but to me it boils down to a stick,. a string , an arrow. That's it. How you do that or what you prefer is fine.
However I don't go on an I love slow bows thread , Never seen one. but if it existed I would not go there and run down people that like slow bows. Never met one but there must be at least one.
 
Speed does kill or you would be throwing slow clods of dirt instead of shooting a bow at all.
Subjectively its not a matter of whether or not speed kills or how fast is fast , or even how much or how little. Fact is it is in most people, me included. to do the best we can. I do not do get by in anything.

 If I was stuck in a wilderness with some string I would pick the best stick I could find to build a bow with and the straightest arrow and the sharpest stones.


God bless you all, Steve