How fast is fast?

[SAVIOUR68]

           

[LBR]

There were comments made that 180 fps isn't fast.  I say that's hogwash--my opinion.  The implication, to me at least, is your bow isn't "fast" until you break 190 or more.  I've seen and heard it time and time again, and have seen people go from loving their bow to being flat dissapointed in it after shooting through a chrono.

You can kill rabbits with a .22, but will a .223 kill them "deader"?  That seems to be the logic of some folks.

Sure people tweak selfbow designs--they like to challenge themselves.  Never heard a selfbowyer say that speed is their #1 priority.

 

Those are LBRs words.

Yes, they are--it was the implication I got.  I reckon my opinion means as much as anyone else's.

 Steve, you obviously didn't read my posts closely at all.  I noticed you went back and changed your post from this original, but you still missed it by a mile.  

 

Those are LBRs words. I have not read that anywhere except from him. This is not a debate on slow vs fast. It is about fast bows. LBR brought debate to the table and it really harms the thread;.
No one has said speed is the only thing. In fact I harp on quietness, shootability, quality of build. grip ect all the time and so do many others. Performance is then entire bow. Speed is not subjective though. It is one area in which a basic portion of the bow performance can be tested and quantified scientificaly instead of subjectively or speculatively.

We are all individuals and sometimes we see things differently. However as a bowhunting brotherhood and trad equipment brotherhood we should be open to others likes and dislikes without condemning them.
We have within our ranks some who have quit hunting but still love to shoot trad equipment. We have self bow owners , builders, shooters. We have primitives. We have people that love ILFs and some who LOve fancy wood. We have those that are strictly Hill lovers and some who shoot D and R longbow and others shoot recurves. We have those that like top mount takedowns and those that like belly mount takedowns.
We have those that want the best and fastest . the entire package and others that could care less about that but want rough and tough that they can throw out of a tree stand or use for a walking stick.
So these are some of the differences but to me it boils down to a stick,. a string , an arrow. That's it. How you do that or what you prefer is fine.
However I don't go on an I love slow bows thread , Never seen one. but if it existed I would not go there and run down people that like slow bows. Never met one but there must be at least one.
So LBR, your statements like speed doesn't kill but it certainly sells are imho./ Ignorant.
They display a lack of integrity concerning fact. Speed does kill or you would be throwing slow clods of dirt instead of shooting a bow at all.
Subjectively its not a matter of whether or not speed kills or how fast is fast , or even how much or how little. Fact is it is in most people, me included. to do the best we can. I do not do get by in anything. If I was stuck in a wilderness with some string I would pick the best stick I could find to build a bow with and the straightest arrow and the sharpest stones.

You seem to want to knock other people that feel like that . Its kind of like , I have an inferiority complex and you better be just like me. Or I will tell you off., LOL Which is exactly what you are doing and using strawmen to do so.
Anyway its a real rain on the parade attitude and I'm sorry to see it here.

[Hoyt]

This is an another example of the benefits from fast bows.

When you're old and weak from health problems like me and still want to shoot recurves it's nice to be able to have one built that will give you a little extra speed for the poundage you are able to draw. That's why I had Kirk build a Sasquatch with triple carbon and foam limbs and no veneers 47# @ 29" 64" long. The bow shoots fast, flat and accurate, draws smooth as butter and is quiet. I can shoot the big Simmons Tree Sharks on heavy shafts and still get really quick arrows with good penetration. That's what it's all about when it comes to fast bows for me.

 
 

[larry]

found in another thread.


Most all are values reported by Blacky and using a 5 fps reduction to account for finger release average.

Note: there are a couple bows that were obtained from Pete’s World.


Recurve Bows………………………………………………………Length…Drw Wt…….FPS….Arrow Wt…..GPP

Hummingbird Bamboo Kingfisher T/D Recurve………..60……….47.5……….180……….426……….8.97
Fox High Sierra T/D Recurve……………………………………..60……….53.0……….185……….477……….9.00
Bob Lee Thunderbolt Recurvebow…………………………….60……….52.0……….186……….468……….9.00
Bob Lee Hunter Bicentenial Elite…………………………….…60……….50.5……….188……….453……….9.00
Black Widow SA V Ironwood T/D Recurve………………..60……….52.0……….187……….468……….9.00
Black Widow SA III T/D Recurve……………………………….60……….52.0……….182……….468……….9.00
Morrison Take-Down Recurve…………………………………...58……….52.5……….187……….473……….9.00
Dalaa T/D Recurve……………………………………………………..64……….53.0……….189……….476……….8.98
Predator 'Classic'…………………………………………………………60………50.5……….193……….454……….8.99
Bob Lee 'Hunter Bicentennial Elite'……………………………60……….50.5……….188……….453……….8.97
Great Plains Swift 'SR Swift Black Hawk'…………….……58……….50.0……….188……….447……….8.94
Black Widow 'PAX' (tulip wood)…………………………………60……….50.0……….189……….452……….9.04
Black Widow 'PCH' (Braz Rosewood/Tiger Mrytle)……58……….50.0………189……….450..........9.0
Dryad ILF 15" riser Xtra long ACS RC Static……….……62……….42.6……….193.........384……….9.0
BW KBX……………………………………………………………………….58……….50.2……….187……….452……….9.0


Longbows and Hybrids…………………………………………….Length…Drw Wt…….FPS….Arrow Wt…..GPP
La Clair Super Shrew Limited Longbow #25………………58……….53.0……….181……….477……….9.00
Acadian Woods Treestick T/D Longbow………………………62……….54.0……….181……….486……….9.00
Fox Reverse Handle Fennic Fox Longbow……………………60……….52.0……….176……….468……….9.00
Hornes Brush Bow T/D………………………………………………..60……….45.5……….182……….408……….8.97
BW PL X Birdseye Maple………………………………………………62…….…50.5……….185……….457……….9.05
ACS All Carbon Extreme…………………………………….……….64……….47.0……….195……….420……….8.94
Centaur Carbon Elite Longbow…………………………………….60……….51.0……….190……….457……….8.96
Tomahawk Diamond Series T/D Thunderstorm………...62……….53.0……….181……….477……….9.00

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>>----> Friend <----<<

[LBR]

47# @ 29"  

I wouldn't call that "weak" at all, and wouldn't have a problem hunting elk or moose with any decent bow at that weight.  That's just me though.  

For the...third time, I think?  I'm not knocking a "fast" bow.  Never did, in spite of the false implications.  

I honestly and sincerely don't understand the emphasis on 5-10 fps.  If 10 fps or 5# of draw weight were the deciding factor between a clean kill and a wound, I think the ethical thing to do would be to choose a different weapon.  Again, that's just me.

[ozzyshane]

Hoyt you hit the nail on the head with what the extra speed can do when we get shoulder probs and want the most eff killing trad bow we can use

Kirk and steve you guys and a few others have pushed the trad bow to the next level keep on doing what you guys do best you have a gift that few have Thanks Shane

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?

Oh but they did brutha.... So did Black widow, Bob lee, A&H, Centaur, Dryad etc... etc... And... they continue to do so every year..... Do you have any idea how much money and time is invested by these companies developing new models and designs every year with better all around performance as their goal?  Higher performance means just that. Smoother draw, better stability, flatter trajectory, better penetration...

It's the individual archers preference whether he would rather use lighter weight shafts and get more speed, or use heavier shafts and get more power for less draw weight pulled.... the primary goal ISN"T SPEED here brutha... Speed is a means of measuring performance levels.... nothing more.

You are constantly looking for better string building materials to provide the best product for archers to use on their bows.... Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows.... we all roll with the flow, or get left in the wake to watch the others....  I say lets rock and roll!

Very well said. My thoughts exactly!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Give it a rest Chad.... this isn't a debate. This thread was started by a new bowyer asking simply "How fast is Fast"  i believe the whole intent was to get a answer from guys to see where the goals are heading in the research and development of his bows......

i'm going to answer your question point blank...

it doesn't matter to a lot of folks.... but it means a lot to others to get every bit of performance they can get.... to a bowyer it comes a bit at a time and a 5-10 fps jump is a good sign you are going the right direction.....

This thread isn't about "Why" you need  higher performance, and if it was, it wouldn't last long.
It also has nothing to do with being "Traditional" or following the old Icons paths, so lets not go there....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

oooops! double post

[pamike]

Well I for one am glad these guys are spending alot of time and money to get every fps they can out of trad equipment. Not only is it helping us in the field but it is raising the bar for all bowyers. They just keep getting better and better. The older I get the more I can use some extra speed. Shoulders just can't pull the weight any more.

[LBR]

Give it a rest Chad....  

Pardon me?  Since when do you decide who gets to state their opinion?      

I would reply further, but I don't see any point in trying to explain things I didn't say to begin with.

[olddogrib]

Lord, this post should be over on the LW!  Personally, I appreciate any incremental speed that does not come with compromise. And I don't think in this day and time that it necessarily has to.  I appreciate bowyers like Kirk that are devoting the time to extensive R&D necessary to squeeze out a few extra fps without sacrificing anything. (and I've never owned a Squatch) I'm even more impressed they have the courage to come on here and discuss it (while many more are remaining silent), knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!

[gringol]

We've certainly beat the dead horse on this one.  Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...at least in public.  Unfortunately speed is really the only good measure we have of performance.  Ive never heard of a bowyer measuring decibels or "smoothness".  Those are very important, but they are more felt than measured.  So, We are stuck with speed as our measure of performance.

[WTM45]

Originally posted by gringol:
  Unfortunately speed is really the only good measure we have of performance.  

Even that can be suspect.  Ever heard of calibrating a chronograph?    :D

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually there IS a good way to measure smoothness through charting the draw force curve. But... the differences in the actual feel of early weight , mid draw, and tail end stacking points are interpreted differently by different archers....

Some guys love the that early weight and the feel of a let off as the draw cycle drops below 2#'s per inch commonly found in recurve limbs.

Others like less early weight with a steady increase of PPI (pounds per inch)through out the draw cycle more common in a long bow limb.

Then we get a bit of each with the hybrid long bow.....If you get your geometry right i think the hybrid long bow limbs should be the world record holders....  check out the high speed video clips and watch what those limbs are doing after the arrow is gone... you got "The Chicken"...  and you got the "Belly dancers" and then you got a few in there that doesn't flop around much at all....  

It's never ending brutha... Ain't no dead horses around my shop.      

[LBR]

...knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!

Says who?  Who even implied any such?  

 

Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...

Who said it was?

I like fast bows.  I own fast bows.  Speed just isn't my #1 criteria.  I can be honest and say if all I was worried about was speed, I'd shoot wheels.

When did it become a crime to have a different opinion, and dare state it honestly?  

If I said something that isn't true, just copy and paste my actual words (not what some pulled out of their imagination and accused me of) and set me straight.  Otherwise...what is the problem?

[gringol]

There's no problem, chad.  You felt like the discussion implied that you have to have the fastest bow available.  I think that was misconstrued on your part. I felt like you resented the discussion of speed altogether.  Apparently you think I misconstrued your comments.  I guess we're even.  I appreciate your opinion, but some of your posts are coming across a bit combative.

[cbCrow]

It always makes me laugh that it seems if someone, usually in the majority, has a problem with what you ask or say, your always the one who is creating the problem, or your upsetting the old apple cart? And then they always want to quantify there comments by telling you what they think. If, in my opinion, you can't accept someones opinion differing from yours, you need to re-think. This coversation is a good one that may help some people to think.

[LBR]

Sorry about that.  I do get defensive, based on previous experiences.  Bad habit.

My friends bust on me for being "too honest".  I tent do be blunt, and it doesn't always come across the way I intend it.

I was under the impression the OP was getting started in the sport and was concerned about speed.  I guess because I've seen that time and time again, especially with those coming over from wheels.  I didn't want him to think that he had to be getting 190 fps to make a clean kill.  

Then I stupidly inserted a question I've had for a long time and have never gotten a clear answer to--went downhill from there.

I tried to go back to my original point by stating the facts that Hill, Pearson, Bear, etc. had all done amazing things with bows that, by today's standards, are "slow".  Obviously my communication skills on a computer aren't great.

[duncan idaho]

quote:
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 ...knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!
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Says who? Who even implied any such?


quote:
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 Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...
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Who said it was?
_________________________________________________

I see from your post count you have been a member for a long time. I joined in 2005. You know from your experience that asking about "speed" in any form or fashion is "silently disapproved" from the majority of comments that are posted. You cannot ask a question about speed with out getting the "speed doesnt kill, its the broadhead!" type of comments.

This site is not the LW, you should be able to come on here and ask a decent question about speed, and not endure asinine comments.

So, yes, based on the past threads and the comments made, you will be burned at the stake. Yes, based on past threads, yes, speed is a dirty word on here.

If I came on here and asked which is faster a BW or a Morrison? I would be burned at the stake, fueled by comments like "speed is one for wheels, deer can dodge a bullet, so it does not matter"

Do a search on "speed" and the read comments that are posted. The OP always ends saying he is sorry for asking. so, yes, you will be burned at the stake.

If I am not insterested in a thread, I dont reply. That is a simple rule that more people on here should follow, especially on the speed threads