How fast is fast?

[ermont]

I would say anything over 190 fps with 10 GPS arrows is fast. At most hunting distances, I don't know how important that really is. I know if I had the choice between two bows that were identical in other ways other than speed, I would take the fast bow every time. The slight margin for error and slight increase in penetration are a bonus.

[TxAg]

Originally posted by Stumpknocker:
I definitely like objectivity. I like fast bows, too.

Not meaning to derail this thread, but the next question is how fast can a deer dodge far enough to compromise a shot? I would love to see data on that.

x2

[L82HUNT]

Maybe I need a new chrono my #'s never get what others claim  

[TraditionalGuy]

Originally posted by ermont:
I would say anything over 190 fps with 10 GPS arrows is fast. At most hunting distances, I don't know how important that really is. I know if I had the choice between two bows that were identical in other ways other than speed,   I would take the fast bow every time. The slight margin for error and slight increase in penetration are a bonus.

Save perhaps looks. Let's not kid ourselves here. We all want our bows to look good while shooting as well, no?

[cbCrow]

"So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!"

Sorry but this is incorrect,should read," half of 1/10 of a second longer to get to target" I hope that this sheds some light on the "speed" which I have heard so many times and has never been of consequence to myself. Give me a good bow, 10-12gpp arrow, knowledge of my limitations, and the ability(lots of practice) to put arrow where it needs to be and a shaaarp head and I'll be happy without too much concern about speed.

[Tajue17]

Originally posted by cbCrow:
I always like to read these type of threads because of the many opinions expressed, with most taking a position their way is the only right way. So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math. The formula to find time is T=D/R with D being distance, and R being the rate or speed so here goes. I chose 15 yds.(45 feet) as distance to target, 3 rates of 190fps,175fps,160fps as the speed.

T= 45/190=.23684 seconds(A)
T=45/175=.25714 seconds(B)
T=45/160=.28125 seconds (C)

So: A-B=.0203 or 20/1000 seconds sooner to target
    B-C=.02411 or 24/1000 sec. to target
    A-C=.04441 or 44/1000sec. to target
So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!

what if the wind was blowing from front to back at say 20 mph with arrow A and then the wind started blowing back to front 5 mph when you shot arrow C,,,, then figure with arrow B you followed thru better, picked a spot  and had a much cleaner release and it just felt right...  IDK,, I 'd say the one that felt right was faster.

[daveycrockett]

Originally posted by Stumpknocker:
I definitely like objectivity. I like fast bows, too.

Not meaning to derail this thread, but the next question is how fast can a deer dodge far enough to compromise a shot? I would love to see data on that.

It's been calculated with slo-mo footage of a deer dropping at the shot. To beat a deer's reaction at 20 yds you need 600 fps! According to the video I saw this on years ago.

[ermont]

When you're talking less than 200 FPS, I think quiet trumps fast but I'll take every advantage I can get.

[overbo]

Speed is great IF YOU CAN GET CONSISTANT ARRO FLIGHT.

When was the last time you shot a animal at 6 feet?

If that 190+fps arro at SIX FEET distant isn't coming off the bow as straight as possible,it looses a BUNCH of it's velocity to correct itself.I will take a 170-sum fps bow that I can bareshaft consistantly at any distant over any 200 fps bow that dosen't.

[nineworlds9]

Yeah 180 def aint slow, high 180's to 190+ is where you really get into what is a 'fast' trad bow though.  I will say I prefer quiet over fast everytime though.

[duncan idaho]

Someone explain to me the statement about "quiet" vs speed. A lot of posters always quote the "quiet" factor like its the only thing that matters, if so, why invest in a high performance custom bow? Just shoot some off the rack production model.

 I have never had a high performance bow that wasn't quiet with the proper tuning, so, I dont understand all these "quiet "remarks. When someone asks a speed question, "quiet" this is the first thing that comes up. Why? doesnt make sense. I have never missed a shot on an animal because my bow wasnt "quiet".

[katman]

cbCrow "So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math"

Proper perspective for me is to shoot arrows A and C at distances and really see the differences in trajectory, real world stuff. For me the math is nice but 4.4 hundredths of a second is a number that is hard translate into trajectory change. On the other hand at 15yds you won't see a lot of difference in trajectory between A and C but go to 30yds and things change a bunch.

Back to the question 180 is quick 190+ is very fast at 10gppm @28".

[gringol]

Originally posted by duncan idaho:
Someone explain to me the statement about "quiet" vs speed. A lot of posters always quote the "quiet" factor like its the only thing that matters, if so, why invest in a high performance custom bow? Just shoot some off the rack production model.

 I have never had a high performance bow that wasn't quiet with the proper tuning, so, I dont understand all these "quiet "remarks. When someone asks a speed question, "quiet" this is the first thing that comes up. Why? doesnt make sense. I have never missed a shot on an animal because my bow wasnt "quiet".

I'd like to hear this too.  It seems some folks just don't believe in fast bows.  There is definitely more to hunting than a fast bow,  but I don't get people dumping on measurable performance. I find it impossible to believe that you wouldn't rather shoot a fast bow.If you had two bows that were both visually appealing, quiet,smooth, etc, you're saying you'd pick the slower one!?  Someone please explain this.  It makes zero sense.

[gringol]

Originally posted by katman:
cbCrow "So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math"

Proper perspective for me is to shoot arrows A and C at distances and really see the differences in trajectory, real world stuff. For me the math is nice but 4.4 hundredths of a second is a number that is hard translate into trajectory change. On the other hand at 15yds you won't see a lot of difference in trajectory between A and C but go to 30yds and things change a bunch.

Back to the question 180 is quick 190+ is very fast at 10gppm @28".

The difference between 160 and 190 fps at 15 yds is 7" of arrow drop.  At 25 yds it's 18".  That is the math.

[Sixby]

the quiet vs speed comments come about in order to cast a bit of hubris upon bows that are faster than the bow or bows that are their favorites. It is an un-substantiated statemate that is made to cast doubt on the faster bow.
I maintain that the faster bows are actually faster because the balance and timing which are critical to quietness may be a bit better than the balance and timing of the bow that is slower. I know even within bows I build that this is a fact and explains why otherwise identical bows may be a bit quieter and a bit faster than an otherwise identical bow.

God bless, Steve

[cbCrow]

To answer sveral peoples questions or statements,I used 15yds. based on average yardage of killed deer by trad hunters. I based this figure on threads from here and 2 other sites. I just wanted to show that at the distances, we as hunter kill game, the difference is of minimal concern. If your going to use 30yds, is that your hunting distance? Than that would make it relevent, which probably would be more in the western states than in eastern hardwood forests, point taken in that case. Now the second point about the drop. This may be correct for you given the parameters needed to find trajectory but it would only apply to you and your setup. So what your are saying is incorrect for others,as we all shoot different weight arrows, launch height is different in each of us, drag co efficient difference to name a few, so your assumption has no meaning to the conversation in general but thank you for your opinion. Do I think 180fps is fast, heck yea, but if that is the primary factor,speed, than why not go back to the other side and shoot 280-320fps and than don't worry about the hours of practice or dedication it takes to be good with our choice of bows.

[gringol]

Cbcrow, you can't bring your math into the discussion and then poo poo my math because you dont like the result.  Your math said nothing about individual setup, and neither did mine.

[cbCrow]

gringol, I don't see how your math was  poo-poo'd by me. I simply stated a fact that the drops you gave were not a standard to be used by all because their not. There are too many variables involed in figureing trajectory to make a blanket statement. To stress my point, don't bullet manufactures publish there own ballistic tables? If you look in Sierra and Nosler books you could take a 150gr boattail bullet and find that while they may be close there is a difference in their trajectory. This common in all projectiles as there are variables to be figured in the equation. So what may be true for you may not be true for all. As a matter of fact I assumed your math was correct for you and just wanted to make the point that it may not hold up for my setup or anyone else. As far as my math goes all the parameters I set up are measurable and through thousands of years have held true. If you walk a amount of distance in a  amount of time you can get the rate your walking very easily. All you need are the numbers and do the math. With trajectoy a whole bunch more comes into play. By the way I am cbCrow and there was nothing I said was trying to insult you. If you were, your problem not mine.

[gringol]

In fact, your equation also assumed zero drag and constant speed.  I don't understand why you seem to prefer slow bows.  If that works for you, great, but you'll never convince me that slower is better.  Even selfbow guys try to make the fastest bow they can.  That's all I have to say.

[Weasel]

When I first got into trad in '89 I asked the late Jim Brackenbury how fast his bows were. This is what he told me:

"There ain't a deer alive that cares how fast you miss 'em!"

He then went on to talk about how smoothness, stability, sharp broadheads, and shot placement were WAY more important than speed.

Jerry