How fast is fast?

[Gil Verwey]

Ha! Now that is some funny stuff right there!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by overbo:
Kirk,
You didn't ask the purpose of bare shafting?LOL

I guess I'm not one of those better archers that never has form or release problems.Bows w/ low brace and alot of preload in the limbs seem sensative to my shooting style.

I did have the pleasure of shooting one of your bows at Balt.Love the looks but I have bows I shoot more confidently w/ and that's bottom line for me.No matter how quick it shoots.

you side stepped both questions bro....the first one about bare shafting may seem kinda silly to you. but the the reason i asked is most everyone knows that it's to find the correct arrow spine.

But.... bare haft tuning arrows at all distances isn't necessary to obtain excellent flight. typically its used only to determine the right spine during paradox.... just because you can't bare shaft light weight shafts flying 200 fps doesn't mean it's going to effect your arrow flight once you have the fletching on.

  Speed is great IF YOU CAN GET CONSISTANT ARRO FLIGHT.  When was the last time you shot a animal at 6 feet?  If that 190+fps arro at SIX FEET distant isn't coming off the bow as straight as possible,it looses a BUNCH of it's velocity to correct itself.I will take a 170-sum fps bow that I can bareshaft consistantly at any distant over any 200 fps bow that dosen't.

this statement is down right silly....unless your arrows are coming out of the bow sideways the velocity or accuracy isn't effected at all.....

but i think you nailed it on your last post. it's not about arrow speed at all.... for you its about confidence in your bow.


    My long bow scales 57# at my draw i shoot a 550 grain arrow at 194-196 fps, who cares! All I care about is the fact that it shoots any material arrow I put on the string right where I am looking,

Obviously there are a lot of guys who DO care brutha, or these posts wouldn't get any attention at all... You've got a pretty fast bow and know how to shoot it... Cool beans!  

[Sixby]

I actually shot an elk at six feet. Did not get complete penetration but did get a dead elk.

To the thread again. 180 at the parameters you laid out is fast. You should compete well with most of the belly mounted longbows and even with most of the top mount bows getting those speeds.

God bless, Steve

[heartlandbowyer]

Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys.

Thanks,
Cory

[overbo]

I understand the spine thing w/ bare shaft tunning but I was speaking about bare shaft shooting,not tunning.Example,take 3 bare shafts and practice at different ranges.The more forgiven bow (for me) usually shoots a bare shaft more consistantly.My findings have bows w/ 8+'' brace w/ moderate to very little pre-load,putting straight bare shafts down range more easily.

I like that,
Your speed bow won't bare shaft tune w/ a arro to get the 200fps that one advertises.Don't worry about that.Put some fletching on that arro and go w/ it.Interesting statement from a bowyer.

[Sixby]

Originally posted by overbo:
I understand the spine thing w/ bare shaft tunning but I was speaking about bare shaft shooting,not tunning.Example,take 3 bare shafts and practice at different ranges.The more forgiven bow (for me) usually shoots a bare shaft more consistantly.My findings have bows w/ 8+'' brace w/ moderate to very little pre-load,putting straight bare shafts down range more easily.

I like that,
Your speed bow won't bare shaft tune w/ a arro to get the 200fps that one advertises.Don't worry about that.Put some fletching on that arro and go w/ it.Interesting statement from a bowyer.

It is interesting. Especially since Kirk was a very accomplished competition shooter shooting unlimited compound and I am certain he carefully tuned as did I.
I find more interesting your statement that you like little preload and an 8 inch plus brace. That contradicts a well designed bow which will have good stability at even a 7 inch brace and a lot of pre load.
What I have observed is that loud bows have little preload and need the high brace height in order to have any stability.
What you have with a higher brace is a bow that is more forgiving only if the bow window is not cut well past center. The arrow has to bend around the sight window instead of shooting through it . With closer brace height this becomes a problem making the bow less tunable. I cut my bows 3/16past center and they do not have that problem. You could shoot them as low as you wish although I recommend 6 1/2 to 7 1/4 simply because that is where the preload is best.
I can hunt with one of these bows with no string silencer, They are that quiet. However I do like the look of fur so I put a dab of beaver on them. LOL
I have never bare shafted an arrow from a stick bow. I balance the broadheads and watch the arrow flight. I am probably one of those folks that should never go into the woods. I think I heard an elk say that one time.
God bless you all, Steve

[duncan idaho]

"Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys."

Thanks,
Cory
------------------------------------------------

You do not have to apologize for asking a legiminate question. It you felt the need to, then this sites motto " one sword sharpens another" is a joke.

I dont disrespect anyone on here, it you want to shoot a certain bow, have at it, you bought it.

However, saying that, you should not make ridiculous comments about the subject of speed , when it comes up. You almost get the impression that people are personally offended. You dont like the subject, dont read it......

If it wasnt for modern bowyers pushing the edge on speed, especially need designs like Static recurve, you would not have the innovations in Traditional archery that we all enjoy today.

When someone comes on here and asks a question about comparing two bows, NEVER DO THEY ASK WHICH IS THE SLOWEST OR LEAST EFFICIENT.

[Bear Heart]

Sometimes I don't know what people mean by "forgiving".  If you torque the bow, collapse, creep, pluck, etc, you will have issues on any bow.

[cbCrow]

Katman, no sir you did not irritate me, as a matter of fact I love good spirited debates and welcome opposite opinions. I apologize if I came off that way.....Chuck

[overbo]

Steve,

Never said Kirk dosen't do his part to tune his bows.He posted the words above.Not me!

Dosen't it stand to reason,

Of all the wonderful qualities you describe above in your bow.That a bow was built so the pre-load works best a 8+'' brace.The bow would be more forgive to shoot?Of course it would but you would loose those chrono #'s that you so boldly boost.

[larry]

I just chrono'd my fastest most consistent shooting bow....glove release, 45lbs at 27", 528 grain arrow which comes out to 11.7333 grains per lb. (the arrows I hunt and shoot with)

166fps. most people wouldn't consider that fast, but out of 100 or so bows that I've owned, that 166 is smoking fast.  

[duncan idaho]

Almost 12 grains, 528 grain arrow, with only a 27 in. draw? 166 fps? You really have a high performing bow.You must be happy with that one. Good Shooting.

[Sixby]

Originally posted by overbo:
Steve,

Never said Kirk dosen't do his part to tune his bows.He posted the words above.Not me!

Dosen't it stand to reason,

Of all the wonderful qualities you describe above in your bow.That a bow was built so the pre-load works best a 8+'' brace.The bow would be more forgive to shoot?Of course it would but you would loose those chrono #'s that you so boldly boost.

At eight inches it would lose some of its speed but it would really gin nothing in shootability because the sight window is cut 3/16 past center and radiused in every direction. The point you are missing is that the high brace height is because the reflex of the bow which the bowyer put in the bow makes the bow unstable at the lower brace height. This does contribute to being an ill mannered bow until you get the brace height up high enough to compensate for that.

So here is the question. Which is best designed the extremely shootable bow with extreme speed at 6 3/4 inches or the extremely shootable bow with good speed at 8 inches?
Honest answer is the bow that has those attributes at 6 3/4 inches. Because-- If for some weird reason a person just desires to shoot an 8 inch brace he can always twist the string up and slow his bow down .

One thing you would find though. At eight inch brace the EagleWing will still be in the 190s in most cases. Some individuals vary.

God bless you all, Steve

[overbo]

WOW!

One can raise your bow's brace a 1 1/4'' above recommended brace and still accomplish 190fps @28'' and 10grs per #.My hats off to you Mr. Talant.Never new there is a bow out there that can do that.  

[Sixby]

Thanks: I was talking about 9 gpp though. I have not tested that at 10 but it will be in the high 180 to 190. Yes there are bows out there that will do that.
Steve , don't get depressed that you did not know that. How could you? To the best of my knowledge you have never even seen one of my bows, much less shot one.
 Sasquatch is usually, Not always , a tiny bit faster than mine. There may be some others. However I am talking about belly mount bows. My top mounts are usually a bit faster . I believe there are pleanty of owners out there to attest to this.

 Oh and to give credit where credit is due there are other bows that are as fast. faster, or at least very close. I'm not about to claim I am building the fastest bows in the world. Centaur for one and I am sure that there are some others.

All of them have several things in common. Well balanced and timed. Little or no shock, Hands on bowyer tuning, High early weight, very even draw force curve,
Around 7 in area in brace.

God bless, Steve

[pamike]

I will post my head to head results tomorrow of a bunch of fast bows. I spent a bunch of time today and I am too tired to type tonight. I was surprised by the winner and also how close the top bows were!!!

Mike

[heartlandbowyer]

Looking forward to seeing the results of your head to head.

[Sixby]

I don't expect any of the belly mounts to beat the top mount bows so I would lay my money on the Squatch or the Centaur. Probably on the SS
This will be very interesting though.

God bless, Steve

[duncan idaho]

really interested in reading your results. Thank you

[ishoot4thrills]

I feel like my Kanati is a very efficient bow and I shoot it well. I have a relatively short draw length and I shoot a fairly heavy arrow for my draw weight. I could get a much faster arrow speed if I chose to use much lighter arrows but I'm not a speed freak. But I do like high efficiency/high performance bows that are capable of fast arrow speeds if one chooses to shoot light arrows.

Speed is relative to draw weight, arrow weight, draw length, and bow efficiency. I have always thought it funny when someone says their bow shoots 195 or 205 or whatever fps but they have no idea how much their arrow weighs or what their draw length is.    :rolleyes:    Heck they could be shooting an arrow weighing 6 grains per pound(or even less)! I've also seen people draw an arrow back much farther when shooting through the chrono than they normally would when shooting at a target.

Check out my setup in my signature below for details.