skinny string ?

[valleysniper]

I have bought a couple skinny strings from Oliverstacy, they are FF, 8 strand instead of the stock 12, I have heard they might change the arrow spine I need. Anybody have any experience with these strings ? What can I expect from them ?   Sniper

[Caughtandhobble]

If they're anything like Rick B's strings, they will change your spine drastically. The skinny strings that I have used make the bow quicker and quieter. Enjoy your new strings.

[LBR]

Comparing equally well made strings, I've never seen any drastic, or even notable changes in noise or performance.  If the 12 strand strings are also OS strings, I wouldn't expect anything major.  If not, depends on how well the 12 strand strings were made.

[nineworlds9]

It depends on the bow.  Change shouldn't be to big.  Shootability/quietness is main benefit

[Jasper2]

I'm with Chad and Chuck on this.  In fact, Chad and I spent some time talking about this very topic at ETAR a few weeks ago    :D  

I've tested some super skinny strings that made my butt pucker as well as strings from almost all the guys that make them (including Rick B) and I've not seen enough performance difference to justify using very small diameter strings.  

Now maybe if you were changing from a 20 strand dacron rope, you would notice a big boost in performance. However, when comparing skinnys to a well made "moderate" diameter FF string, I just don't see the gains that some people speak of......and certainly not enough to cause an arrow difference at the distances I shoot.

Take care,
Jason

[cahaba]

I had to go up from 55/60 to 60/65 when I put one on my Howard Hill. That was going from B50.

[Pete McMiller]

Here's my take on skinny strings.  I shoot them exclusively - 8 strand D10.  What I have experienced is a change in the personality of a bow when using skinny strings.  I don't know about arrow speed but there is definately a difference in the vibration signature of a bow when using skinny stings.  I have shot the same bow with a 12 or 14 strand FF string and then with an 8 strand and you would never know it was the same bow.  Will it happen with all bows?  Maybe not, but it has happened with mine.  

Back to the question at hand.  It 'may' change the effective spine requirements of a bow but not by much in my experience.

[Jasper2]

Pete,
Your right....it depends on the bow, and if your talking only about vibration and/or sound....I could see how some bows may need a skinnier string to tame them down.  

I would add that I have seen similar results (with certain bows) by changing only the type of FF material.  However, with the bows that I currently shoot....my feeling is, once they are quiet and have no perceivable vibration....why go smaller?  I usually shoot 12 strands but have shot the same bows with 6 or 8 strands of some really small diameter stuff and there seems to be a point of diminishing returns....so I don't push the limits.

Now if I saw a performance benefit, I'd have no problem going smaller but it is not necessary on many bows.  Some bow designs just don't have any vibration or noise at all....with any diameter string made from any material!!  

Take care,
Jason

[smokin joe]

In an unscientific experiment, the difference between a 16 strand and a 6 strand, for me, is one whole spine group in carbon shafts (example 500 spine to 400 spine) with all other components (bow, point weight, etc) staying the same. Your results might be different.

[damascusdave]

Good things come from skinny strings

DDave

[damascusdave]

Stu Miller's dynamic spine calculator lets you enter data for skinny strings

DDave

[Jasper2]

I forgot about the calculator. Doubling the string strand count results in a 5# difference in required arrow spine. Evidently, I'm not a good enough shot to notice the difference since I shoot the same carbon arrow out of all my bows that vary by as much as 10#. Everyone's results may vary but I just don't see the performance gains or arrow impacts that others do....especially with carbon arrows.  If it works for you then by all means go for it    :D  
I wish I could see results like smokin joe mentions above.....those two arrows are over 16# different in spine!!
Take care,
Jason

[LBR]

I research this stuff constantly, and talk to as many folks as I can including some really good shooters, coaches, and guys at BCY--not to mention my own experience.

I have the advantage of comparing equally well made strings.  Not saying I'm an expert or anything, but after making way over 10,000 strings you can't help but learn something.  If nothing else, my strings are made the same way so it's an apples-to-apples comparison, with the same bows, same arrows, same shooting style, etc.

It's only in my best interest to promote what I feel is the best possible string.  

I'm the kind of guy that, if I don't believe in it, I can't give away a steak to a starving man...but if I do believe in it, I can sell sand to an Arab.  I've sold a LOT of strings over the years.

I've never been a big believer in "NEW AND IMPROVED!!!", or using big words to describe something simple.  I'm not the most technical type--for me, if it works it works, if it doesn't try something different.  I like to keep it simple.  

I have ZERO reason to not promote "skinny" strings, if I felt there was any advantage to them.  

I don't doubt those who like them, but I have to go with my own experience and the experiences of those I know;  those who make their living making these materials, shooting bows, and coaching.  People who don't have an interest in promoting my strings or anyone else's, but rather using what works the best.  

I don't know of any of these people who use or promote low strand count strings.  That, along with my own experience, is why I cannot promote them.  I will make them by request, but I try to make it a point to inform the customer of the downside.

As for the spine calculator...sorry, but that part about doubling the strand count equalling 5# in spine difference is way off.  You can't set one rule that covers them all.  8190 is about 1/2 the size and weight of Dynaflight '97, which is way smaller in diameter and weight than 450+.  That "formula" is like saying using double the number of feathers in a pillow is the same as using double the number of bricks.  Just doesn't work that way.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.  Take it for what it's worth.  Don't be afraid to experiment, and by all means use what works best for you.

Chad

[Kris]

 

I have heard they might change the arrow spine I need.

A skinny string might provide a few fps increase.  Will it change your arrow spine requirement?  Only you will be able to assess that.  If you are at the upper limit of your current spine, then maybe, but I kind of doubt it.

I agree more with Pete's response...typically an improvement in the bows vibe/sound characteristics.

As aside, I have gone as low as 6 & 8 strands but have now settled back to midline at 10 & 12.  Too skinny and you run into serving/nock fit issues and often have to double wrap.  Under field condition, I like the insurance of a few more strands should that errant BH swipe across the string.

Good luck -

Kris

[smokin joe]

The knowledge of an experienced string maker trumps limited and unscientific experiments and most other casual observations. Thousands of tests will produce a broad sample and eliminate singular anomalies. That is why I purchase my strings from an experienced string maker.

[gringol]

I've seen drastic changes in spine/speed when going from a generic to a custom skinny string.  The generic was 18 strand ff (not sure about exact material).  The skinny was 8 strand d10.  I went from a 70# spine with 160 points to a 80# spine with 125s.  The drastic difference I saw was probably because the generic was junk bought from cabelas, probably made in malaysia by an 8 year old for $0.10.

[foudarme]

I have done a full test review in 3 parts on ATO the french tradgang like forum with a shooting machine and the same twisting ratio on 10 strings (8125 vs astroflight) I had carefully built before; only the number of strands was changed (16-14-12-10-8); each string has been stretched and stabilized before shooting (during a whole night for each 8125 strings) in order to get a regular brace height and zero elongation during the test; each string has also been weighted; no string has been served in order to avoid any bashing about any serving's weight issues; each string has been shot with a 6gr loop (what is quite near of the final weight of a 15cm .021 62xs serving ); the shooting tests has been done in 3 times: the first one I have shot all the 8125 strings and a few days later, all the astro strings in 2 times (astro strings test has lasted a lot cause everything had been done with a unique same string that I have untwisted and from which I had remove 2 strands at each time before twisting again, stabilizating and shooting...never again ! On these strings the twisting ratio has ended at 35 twists for a 60" string (with the new black douglas dx riser, the string is only 2" less than the bow length)).

for better understanding some translated data:

vitesse = speed
b = brins = strands
rouge = red = astroflight fiber string
vert = green = 8125 fiber string
allonge = draw length
poids flèche = arrow weight

the bow is my border black douglas with hex6 wood BB2, 57#@28" (yes! you will see how much the speed of this bow is crazy !; the brace height is her hunting one: 7" !

for speeds I have used a pro chrono with indoor infrared kit.

each string is shot with 2 different arrows' weight (577gr & 721gr) and at 3 different draw lengthes (28" - 29" -30"); 2 shots by arrow and draw length if speeds are the same, if not, 3 shots and the average speed is retained.

brace height has been controled befor and after all shootings for each string.

each shot has been done at AMO draw length (vertical projection of pivot point to nock groove + 1.75")

such a review takes hours knowing that before I have also done the strings (my wife was a stringmaker before falling sick so I know how to do a "little bit")

                                 http://www.arctradionly.com/t3769-combien-de-brins-a-ma-corde-partie-2#61149

[Pete McMiller]

Foudarme,  Thanks for the testing but even after translating with google I don't understand, could you please summarize your findings?

[foudarme]

Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Foudarme,  Thanks for the testing but even after translating with google I don't understand, could you please summarize your findings?

I will translate the tabler in english tomorrow...

in red you have the astroflight strings speeds' results and in green the 8125 strings' speeds' results

column 1 :number of strands per strings (green 8125 / red: astroflight) and weight of each string.
column 2: weight of the arrows
 columns 3 & 4 : speeds get at 28" draw length
columns 5 & 6 : speed get at 29"
columns 7 & 8 : speed get at 30"

for making short, with top notch strings all of the same quality, the gain will be of 3fps max between the heavy 16 strands and the light 8 strands string and will depend on the arrow weight and the draw length. If you compare with a generic string, the gain will be mainly the difference between what you could get from a good string in comparison  with what give to you a poor one, nothing to see with the number of strands of both of them.

On my recurve I have found huge differences in noise, vibrations and release stability according to the number of strands: the less strands you have and the less the bow is noisy and the less it is poor release forgiving...

for noise test I have used 2 extra ears pairs with innocent observers ! for release forgivness I have used my poor own release !

[Biathlonman]

My experience says going from thick D97 to thin D10 is like shooting a bow 5-10 lbs. Heavier.