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Author Topic: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?  (Read 2226 times)

Offline Shifting Shadow

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2007, 10:43:00 PM »
I've had inexpensive and expensive bows. My most important consideration is how a bow shoots. So far my favorite is a $200 metal handled recurve.
"Keep the bow you like or you will be looking forever." -H.J.

One bow. One arrow. My ideal.

Offline NightHawk

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2007, 10:49:00 PM »
Every bowyer is going to defend the price they charge, but the simple fact is,  if they weren't making money, they wouldn't be in buisness.
1) Gen. 21:20
And God was with the lad, he grew, and he dwelt in the wilderness, and he became an archer
2)The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline threeundr

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2007, 11:12:00 PM »
A bow is worth what ever someone is willing to pay. It is usually influenced by reputation, availablty and longjevity! There are alot of bowyers that come and go in this very compeditive market. I have owned some great cheap bows and some lowsey expensive ones and vice versa. The only thing I now to do is to try them until you find one that works for you. Besides searching is half the fun!lol.  Leonard.
-Leonard-

Offline Bob Morrison

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2007, 09:23:00 AM »
Brandon, Your right about the hidden costs. And then there is the screwup that you end up tossing the whole bow..
And then once in a while you get someone that no amount of money is worth messing with. Bottom line is if your selling bows and not paying Fed Excise Tax or have Liability Insurance or paying your state sales tax. Your not doing anybody any good. Our Countries widelife, Your Customers. Some countries you go to prison for Tax evasion. And what do you tell your buddy you just gave a bow you built for free, if the string you built breaks and puts an eye out. You are Liable and just messed up the rest of his life, Good friend or not you probably should look into a lawyer. That seem to be the American way anymore. If my price is too high There are a lot of good bowyer out there that do all the right and legal things to be in business, Pick one. If in the future you have to have some major surgery, find a surgeon that doesn't carry Malpractice insurance, you will save enough to take a couple out of state hunts......... if everthing goes right...

Offline Allan Hundeby

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2007, 11:25:00 AM »
If you can't tell the difference between a $200 bow and an $800 (or more) bow by shooting it... then buy the $200 bow.  For those of you who can... I hope I'm as good as you someday.

 
Quote
Originally posted by NightHawk:
Every bowyer is going to defend the price they charge, but the simple fact is,  if they weren't making money, they wouldn't be in buisness.
Respectfully,  I call bull$hit.

Custom bow manufacturers are makers of functional works of art.  We live in an age of consumerism (i.e. the Wal-Mart syndrome) where we expect high quality to come at low-cost.  That can exist only because somebody is getting paid LESS than they should be (and often times, that DOES mean millions of poor souls in China are working 16+ hours for $3/day so we can get used to the idea of "cheap stuff"... with lead paint.)

I'm also in the custom-manufacturing business, and unfortunately I'm never gonna get rich doing this.  I do it because I have a need to "create" with my mind, and hands; because of a sense of fulfillment at finishing a work of art which lights up the eyes of its new owner, and which will likely become an heirloom to their children.  Other people don't feel this drive as strongly; you're lucky, I guess.  Sure, I wish I was paid more, but I'm not about to leave my job for a better-paying one doing something un-creative.  

When disregarding material costs, the time and effort it takes to build a one-of-a-kind hand-made product means you can't cut corners like on an assembly-line.  That also means you spend alot more time attending to details in finishing that would get overlooked in something that's NOT custom-made.

Certainly assembly lines have their place:  It's important to maximize well-designed components - duplicating them wherever possible.  But when producing something to "fit" individual customers (especially something as personal as a bow!) it's often hard to "re-use" elements without altering the total design negatively.
 
Kudos to the custom bow manufacturers who have found ways to speed the production process.  Often it's not possible.


(My $0.02 ... minus inflation rates... minus overhead... minus etc. etc.  = $0.003     :(    )

 
Quote
Originally posted by Bob Morrison:
And then once in a while you get someone that no amount of money is worth messing with.  
Heh!  We call these people, "Customer Number 11".  You know: the type that always sends back the first bottle of wine?  For every ten excellent customers... there's always one that will not be pleased.
Bow:
62" Bob Lee TD Hunter Recurve: 51# @ 28", Braceheight: 7 3/4"

Bowstring:
Chad Weaver 58.5'' 10-strand DF97 (padded loops); 0.19 HALO serving; rubber silencers & brush buttons

Offline Pete W

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2007, 11:35:00 AM »
I get to shoot bows of many values,and with that in mind there is a diference between bows. Some bows at lower prices are a very good bow,and great shooters for the money while others are questionable.

Often a new bowyer will be building a very good design but lacks the finishing toutches that set it apart from the high dollar bow. Some are making a bow that could easily sell for much more. For the bow to sell at a higher price it has to be for reasons. Things we will accept in a 2 or 3 hundred dollar bow are not aceptable at all as the price goes up.

There is more to it than a reliable good shooting bow for it to demand a higher price tag and continue to sell at that price.

I realy wonder how many shooters that put down the high end bows think that 2 or 3 hundred dollar bow is realy worth 6 or 8 hundred? If they had to choose between Bobs bows or their $200.dollar bow and both were priced the same what one would they pick? Bobs of course.

I  have shot expensive bows that were not up to the price they sold for and others that were a steal for the price. When we get up in price we can expect to see a flawless bow, that shoots quiet, with good performance, and no signs of poor craftsmanship or mistakes.

Some will comand a high price because they have a famous name attached to them and are just nasty to shoot, while others are associated with a bowyer that has established a name for quality bows.
 You realy need to sample the good stuff before you decide on how much a bow is worth, don't just blindly defend that good deal because it works for you. Test drive a few high end bows and see if they shoot and feel diferent. How do they compare to the bargain in looks,finish, details. What is the draw curve like? Is it up there in the performance range, hand shock? noise?quality of materials?
 Sure they all shoot an arrow, and will kill a deer,but there should be a diference between $200 and $800. In most cases the diference is very easy to see hear and feel.If it is not then it isn't the bow for you.
I could make a bow and ask $800.00 for it, but it would never sell because it would not be worth $200.00 . The price tag does not guarantee a good bow, but it should and usualy does when it is from an established bowyer.

A good indication of the quality is usualy the waiting list. Not the time, but the number of bows ahead of you. A 1 year wait and only 3 bows ahead is not a good indicator, but 50 bows ahead tells you that there are a lot of people that think the wait is worth while, and the bow is a good one.It usualy is.
As new bowyers become known for good bows the wait gets longer, and usualy the prices increase.
 
The area between these prices{$200.00 an$800.00} is where there are some very good bows being made from not so well known bowyers.Some of these bows are as good as bows costing lots more. That 450 to 550 dollar range has some good deals in it and only lack in name association. I have not seen any $200 dollar bows that could demand a price of $800.There is a diference, and yes you pay for it.
 If you want an extra 10 FPS, it costs. Someone has to pay for all that firewood it took to get the design right. There are risks associated with higher performance, and these are in the posibility of a warranty claim. As performance increases the chance of failure must also increase. The closer to the edge we get the more risk there is.
 A 160 FPS bow is not risky for the bowyer to make compared to a 190 but it will not sell. We want something for the $ and we get it.

Getting older and worn out,that extra fps can be used to drop draw weight and still have the same performance you like without the draw weight. This comes with a price tag.

If you are in the Edmonton area  let me know and you can test some of the "good stuff" then decide for yourself if there is a diference. The review bows are always available for a test drive.

Now I have to get out and put a new cam in my $800.00 truck today so I can go hunting. Is there a diference between a truck that costs $800 and $40,000? Not as good looking,effecient, reliable,but it works for me.Even though it is costing me a weekend out It is a price a chose to live with allong with its draw backs.

At some point you will pick up a bow that just gives you that feeling of "wow" the first time you shoot it. I realy doubt it will have a $200.00 price tag but I bet it will have a custom bowyers name on it.

Pete
Share your knowledge and ideas.

Offline J-dog

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2007, 12:04:00 PM »
Gonna stay out of this one after my first post but Allan there is too funny!

He hit the nail on the head though, I cant agree more. When you are doing fairly custom work YOU WILL NEVER GET PAID WHAT IT IS WORTH! period. All the time and effort involved will be lost money.

And in the end you always get that one customer who has never made a bow in their lives that all of a sudden knows more than you and can tell you every mistake you made on his bow. LOL it can drive ya nuts.

Bottom line is you get what you pay for 95% of the time.

Later

J
Always be stubborn.

Captain hindsight to the rescue!

Offline Papa Bull

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2007, 12:21:00 PM »
There's a lot that goes into being a custom bowyer aside from taking $100.00 worth of materials and turning it into an $800.00 bow for a fabulous profit.  I'd recommend anyone who wants to get rich doing that to go ahead and give it a whirl.  This is the American Dream.  The American Dream, however, is usually a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance and costs a bit more than we often think.   How much does it cost to turn $100.00 bow into an $800.00 paycheck?  Just a little time and money....   let's think about exactly what kind of time and money we might be talking about.  I'll list some of the things that determine how much, if any profit is made off that $800.00 bow.

*  Raw Material costs
*  Time spent answering phones, responding to
*  Office supplies (printer, paper, business cards, invoice forms, receipts, etc.)
*  questions, customer service
*  Time spent purchasing, research and development
*  Shop space
*  Electricity
*  Phone Bill
*  Insurance
*  Disposables like abrasives, drill bits, etc,
*  glues, finishes, shop towels, etc.
*  Accepting credit cards takes 3% off the top
*  Equipment depreciation
*  Marketing and advertising, show fees, etc.
*  Website and hosting fees
*  Waste
*  Deals that go south (writing off bad debt from non-paying customers)
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.


And to make things all the more interesting..... there's never a sure paycheck and you can lose everything at any given time due to circumstances beyond your control.

Most people think in terms of dollars an hour, but in business it just doesn't work that way.  You don't have an assured minimum paycheck.  You are accepting all the risk.  You pay all your own social security.  There's no pension plan, no dental, no medical, no 401K.   And if sales suddenly drop off, you are still stuck with all the same bills - you just have no income.

So a guy has $100.00 in materials into a bow.   And we think it's insane that he sells it for $800.00 making what we think of as a $700.00 profit.    We don't think about the time invested in that bow or figure in the waste or depreciation of equipment or elecricity or insurance or any of the rest of the stuff that is necessary to keep a business alive.  

Some of the costs are elastic, increasing and decreasing with sales and production.  Some are fixed, regardless of sales or production.  You have to be able to make AND sell enough to meet costs, including what you can afford to pay yourself but you have limits to how much you can make, too, so you have to price accordingly.   If you could make and sell a thousand bows a month, you might do very well with a net profit of $10.00 per bow.  If, however, you can only make and sell 10 bows a month, you'll need a lot more than a $10.00 net profit per bow if you want to eat something that month.  

I don't know any rich bowyers.  There are a lot of bowyers, but it's tough for all of them.  There are only so many customers and, frankly, I don't think there are enough to go around and I'll bet the number of bowyers closing doors in 2008 will be close to the number of bowyers opening doors in 2007.

And if we don't support them, - they won't be there because the market won't support their enterprises and they'll move on to more profitable things, (just about anything else they can do would be more profitable).

Offline Marblesonac

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2007, 12:58:00 PM »
Strictly speaking, as a tool, bows aren't that much different functionally.

The reason I buy custom bows is to get something that artistically appeals to me and that no one else in the world has, while at the same time making sure that it was built for my grip, draw length and pounds of pull at that length.

Again, I tend to buy things that no one else has, but many wish they did.
Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes....

Offline Bob Morrison

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2007, 01:14:00 PM »
Well put Papa Bull. Some of the bowyers that will leave will have 10,15 20 years or more experience as bowyers and most not have anyone taking over the business. So that experiance is all lost and you get to start all over again training the new bowyer with his hits and misses.
Black Widow Archery has been in business for 20+ years and will be around for at least another 20, because the business is being handed down (Not given to) to dedicated employees that will continue to have a good business plan because of there work ethics and leadership they have received over the years from Mr. Ken Beck. Team work,WE, not and I or me business.
    We are going to lose some good bowyers and get some not so good in replacement.

Offline mrgreenhead

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2007, 02:56:00 PM »
I believe in supporting the ma and pa stores and the little man cause if we dont they will soon be all gone , And i have yet to see any archery equipment worth a hoot at walmart .

Offline dorris

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2007, 04:05:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bob Morrison:

    We are going to lose some good bowyers and get some not so good in replacement.
Why not be postive and say were going to lose some good bowyers and get some good ones in replacement ?  sure there are bad bowyers going to come and go just as in anything else . mechanics , lawyers .doctors and so on . I think what really makes a good bowyer is one that puts his or her heart into there work . when they get to the point where they say oh its just another bow order then there loseing the drive that got them there . also quality materials in a bow is a key componet I believe. most good bowyers are to me like artist painting pictures instead of canvas and paint its wood and glass and glue . as far as counting the electric, tools , insurance , etc. that really isnt in the answer for the thread because doesnt a bad bowyer have the same overhead and bills as does the most skilled bowyer out there ???
" If I fail trying my hardest did I really fail ? "

Jeff Dorris
11/16/1970 ~ 3/30/2010
Rest In Peace

Offline NightHawk

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2007, 04:35:00 PM »
All I can say is my 200 dollar bow is better than any 800 - 1000 dollar bow, because I built it myself to my specifications.

  Many of these high profile bowyers, never work on a bow but have people that produce the bows for them. I'm not bgoing to get into a peeing match with anyone over the cost of a bow, if you like it and want to pay 800 dollars for it, more power to you, it's not for me. I'd rather spend that 800 dollars and teach myself how to make a bow and have something to truely show for it.
   I believe in the old axiam Give a man a fish and he will eat for today, teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime"

  In my opinonn there are'nt many truely custom bows anymore, most are mass produced in one way or another
1) Gen. 21:20
And God was with the lad, he grew, and he dwelt in the wilderness, and he became an archer
2)The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline Marblesonac

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2007, 04:50:00 PM »
Nighthawk, I think that's great.  Congratulations.

Turns out that if I tried to make a $200 bow, it would probably cost me much more than the $800 bow.

I'd have to buy saws, sanders, hot box/press/form, finishing sprayers.  My leisure time is worth A LOT to me, figuring that in and the bows I'd screw up, and I'm sure I could buy many of those $800 bows.

Brandon Stahl and Jim Neaves are two guys that make their bows custom..those are the last two I bought from.  Great Experience with both.  Brandon would be a fine example of a GREAT new bowyer coming on the scene.
Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes....

Offline bayoulongbowman

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2007, 05:42:00 PM »
When you look at the research and developement most bowyers put into their craft , most , mind you deserve what they can get, most do it for the passion also . I always ask a bowyer what is you're favorite bow?  :)  Thats the one I order 9 out 10 times...my 2cents here is some trad archers and bowhunters are just CHEAP! And you know who you are, so I say if ya dont want custom , built one yourself. Shop garage sales, but Ive had cheap bows and believe me every bowhunter should have atleast one custom bow built just for him or her  :)  once...take ur time shoot several , most bowyers worth their salt will send ya a bow to test drive...bowyers craft to me is so impressive to me...good luck....their are several bows Id pay alot more than 800 bucks for too.... :)
"If you're living your life as if there is no GOD, you had  better be right!"

Offline dachba

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2007, 06:40:00 PM »
bayoulongbowman, the only problem with the test drive scenerio is, in my personal experience, the test drive bow and the bow I get never seem to shoot the same.  My recommendation would be a bit different; only buy a bow you can shoot numerous arrows through before buying.  In other words, try before you buy.

Having said that, my main shooting bow is one I bought only because it overwhelmed me with its beauty. I didn't try it first. It turns out I really lucked out because it is also a very fine shooter (best I've ever owned)  :)  

I also think that if you are going to have a custom bow made for you, something like a Morrison or Fedora is the way to go because these people stand on their reputations and are going to make sure you are happy.

Anyway, just my 1/2 cents worth.

Dave in Ft. Collins, CO
Dave from North Bend, Oregon

Offline Bob Morrison

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2007, 07:17:00 PM »
Last thing I'm going to say on this...
Some people can never be satisfied, and the more you deal with them you will find out your beating your head against a wall. There are some good bowyers coming up, just think how far ahead of the other up and coming they would be if they had started, Got with someone with 20 years experience??????? and took over ????????????????????

Offline redfish

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2007, 07:19:00 PM »
I suspect that one point that we can all agree on is that bowyers aren't in the business planning to make a few million.
For all of you bowyers, I, for one, am sure glad that you are doing what you do.
El Paisano
Ebi-kuyuutsi

Offline Marblesonac

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2007, 07:27:00 PM »
Amen Redfish, Amen.
Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes....

Offline DAS Kinetic

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2007, 09:19:00 PM »
Bayou,
    Good point about the cost of development.  The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it.  You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it.  Development costs real money.  It's no different than someone like Bob walking in and stealing 8-10 thousand dollars from another bowyer.  I imagine if Bob did that he could afford to sell bows a little cheaper too LOL.  The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods.  That's right, stolen goods.  For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck.  That "savings" is coming out of the pockets of people who just want to make a living doing something they love.  It's not coming out of GM's or IBM's pocket.

   Not every inexpensive bow is the product of this but many are.  There are $250 bows that are honestly produced, but most of us know the score.


   Here's the problem.  If you aren't willing to pay an honest price for an honest product, you are pushing the few who have the talent to drive the real development one step closer to throwing in the towel.  Nobody is making more than a modest living at this.  Most couldn't even afford their own work if they had to buy it.  That's pretty sad!  When the last one is gone, who exactly is going copy who??  When that happens, nobody will be getting any deals on anything.  It will all be junk.

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