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Author Topic: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?  (Read 3146 times)

Offline dorris

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2007, 10:06:00 PM »
I think your not totaly right on that DAS sorry but some  of the lower end bow makers havent got the reputation to sell there bows for 800.00 until they get going good I believe most boyers started out sellling some bows at a cheaper price to get buisness started . you know yourself that word of mouth is a majority of weather a bowyer will make it or break it . there is alot of talent out there that isnt discovered yet but will be in the near future . just like when you started most guys wouldnt even think of shooting a metal riser even though your bows were as good when you started as they are now . but i bet you sold some cheaper in the begining .
" If I fail trying my hardest did I really fail ? "

Jeff Dorris
11/16/1970 ~ 3/30/2010
Rest In Peace

Offline Allan Hundeby

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2007, 10:13:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DAS Kinetic:
Most couldn't even afford their own work if they had to buy it.  That's pretty sad!  
Well put!
Bow:
62" Bob Lee TD Hunter Recurve: 51# @ 28", Braceheight: 7 3/4"

Bowstring:
Chad Weaver 58.5'' 10-strand DF97 (padded loops); 0.19 HALO serving; rubber silencers & brush buttons

Offline Earl E. Nov...mber

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2007, 10:23:00 PM »
There is a place for both, I doubt if too many of us want to throw one of Bob's bows in the bottom of the boat while bow fishing but we sure love showing it off when ever and where ever.
I do have one question though, If a person has a bow built "Custom" for him, and after some time sells it, Is it really still a custom or just another used bow? Seems to me it is only "Custom" when it was built to the owners specifications... Right?? I know if I bought one of Bob's bows used, I would be proud to have a Morrison, but would not feel right calling it "Custom" (my $0.02)
Many have died for my freedom.
One has died for my soul.

Offline Jake

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2007, 11:01:00 PM »
People Like Bob Morrison, Bill Howland, Wes Wallace, Dale Dye, Norm Johnson, the Grahms, Brandon Stahl,  and all the custom bowyers of the world should form a union....then the $800.00 custom bow would only cost $2400.00 and take 3 years to get.  I would bet that 99% of you wouldn't trade jobs/incomes with the best known bowyers in the world like Bill Howland or Bob Morrison.  IMHO if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows.  Golf players switch whole sets of clubs every year.  Do you ever hear him saying that they went with a a club set that cost 75% less because it was "just as good"  YA GET WHAT YA PAY FOR!!!!!  Live it ! Love it! Or Leave!  IF ya want to buy a $200.00 bow then look for $200.00 bow.  Don't knock the guys that are buying the $800.00 bows.  Cuz when they shoot it for a week and sell it on the classifieds then all us cheap guys get a good deal.

Offline NightHawk

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2007, 11:29:00 PM »
Das said....."The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it. You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it. Development costs real money. The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods. That's right, stolen goods. For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck"

  Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.

  There aren't many new innovations in bow designs. Most designs are "knock-offs" of much older designs. Materials have changed over the years allowing improvement within the design parameters, but trad bows haven't changed much from 10,000 years ago.

 Jake said..
"if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows."

 That's not a true statement. A 200 dollar bow can and will preform just as well as an 800 dollar bow. Just because a bow costs more doesn't mean it performs any better. Lots of high end bows can be bought off the shelf.

  I'm not putting anyones product down, but just because your bow costs alot of money doesn't mean it's going to make you a better shot. The bow doesn't make the archer, but rather the archer makes the bow
1) Gen. 21:20
And God was with the lad, he grew, and he dwelt in the wilderness, and he became an archer
2)The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline dorris

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2007, 11:54:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NightHawk:
Das said....."The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it. You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it. Development costs real money. The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods. That's right, stolen goods. For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck"

  Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.

  There aren't many new innovations in bow designs. Most designs are "knock-offs" of much older designs. Materials have changed over the years allowing improvement within the design parameters, but trad bows haven't changed much from 10,000 years ago.

 Jake said..
"if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows."

 That's not a true statement. A 200 dollar bow can and will preform just as well as an 800 dollar bow. Just because a bow costs more doesn't mean it performs any better. Lots of high end bows can be bought off the shelf.

  I'm not putting anyones product down, but just because your bow costs alot of money doesn't mean it's going to make you a better shot. The bow doesn't make the archer, but rather the archer makes the bow
:thumbsup:    :notworthy:  
YOU'RE ABSOLUTLEY RIGHT MY FREIND .
" If I fail trying my hardest did I really fail ? "

Jeff Dorris
11/16/1970 ~ 3/30/2010
Rest In Peace

Offline buckeye_hunter

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2007, 12:26:00 AM »
I'm a sucker for a prety bow. However, I remember hearing somewhere, that most bows are made to shoot better than we can shoot them.

-Charlie

Offline Jason Lester

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2007, 12:31:00 AM »
My only problem is if I had the 800+ to spend on a custom bow (I don't I have 5 kids) I wouldn't know which one to buy. So many choices not enough money.  


Bottom line is you don't need an 800 dollar bow to shoot traditional equipment. I shoot selfbows I have more sweat in than anything. It shoots nice for me. I also have a real nice R/D longbow from the bow swap, and a bunch of bear bows etc I have picked up here and there. All shoot great for what they are. If you want realy pretty and functional customs are great. Just wish I had the money for one (or two or 5).... Someday
LOL
Jason Lester

Offline BamBooBender

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2007, 01:34:00 AM »
I don't generally post on threads like these since I have zero experience when it comes to high end  custom bows. Heck,I hardly  ever even look at theses type of threads, being a "primitive selfbowyer"(read crudely made by myself) type these days.

That being said, I gotta say to all the traditional custom bowyers out there today; I'm glad that you do put your boots on every morning and do what you do. I remember when the archery world was basically taken over by the compound and it seemed that it was pretty much the end of the road for traditional bows. I know it wasn't actually so, but to most people it seemed so. I was even caught up in the "wheels" thing for a number of years.

Anyway to keep it short and because I'm a slow typer, I just want you to know that I'm glad that we are in(as Killdeer put it, I believe) the new "golden age" of traditional archery. and, I think that we all should be glad for the manifold choices when it comes to trad bows. They might not all be to our preference, but at least they are here and available in pretty much all price ranges. How much better could it be? jmho
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Goodbye Shiner you were always a good dog.

Offline bentpole

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2007, 07:40:00 AM »
Jake said "custom bowyers should form a union this way the bow would cost 2,400.00 and take 3 years to get". No call for that comment here Bud Unions built the Empire State Building in 1 1/2 years . We do a four year apprenticeship out here in Jersey, Electricians do five.

Offline Papa Bull

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2007, 08:26:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NightHawk:
 Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
I don't think that's what he meant, but I think it would serve bowyers well to note that a segment of the archery community considers nothing they do is innovative or creative and would gladly support anyone who cared to copy their work and sell it for a lower price, which is pretty easy to do given the fact that they can pick an already successful model and just have it manufactured for them without having to deal with the risk, research and development costs, marketing, etc.

So now they know.... there's nothing "new" in making bows so any successful design they have is subject to be copied and sold cheaper - and the archery community will support that.  So we have now coined a new cliche', "bowyer beware".   :)

Offline thp

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2007, 09:02:00 AM »
Maybe this point has been made already, but have you noticed how many trucks you have seen with a "Bowtech" or "Matthews" sticker on the back window?  Or have you seen the dudes at 3d shoots decked out in Hoyt regalia shooting the latest bow with all of the bells and whistles?  Hoo boy, the latest Field and Stream tested the new compound bows and they aren't cheap.  Once you get them all decked out you're going to come close or pass $ 800.  

After I put down a one hundred dollar deposit on my Striker and as I walked away from Rick's booth at the Iowa Deer Class it really began to dawn on me that I had just made a major financial commitment.  I began to voice a little buyer's remorse and, "hoo boy what have I gotten myself into" thoughts.  My 14 year old son stopped me and  reminded me that I would have spent that much or more if I had gotten a decent compound.  Now that I've got the bow paid for and in my hand I don't regret it at all.  It feels like an extension of my arm, it shoots smoothly and is pretty to boot.  Money well spent.

$ 800 bucks for a custom ain't cheap.  But if the bow does everything you want it to then save your money and pinch here and there, 'cuz it's a good deal and money well spent.
Be kind and merciful. Let no one ever come to you without coming away better and happier. -Mother Teresa

Offline Marblesonac

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2007, 11:09:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bob Morrison:
 There are some good bowyers coming up, just think how far ahead of the other up and coming they would be if they had started, Got with someone with 20 years experience??????? and took over ????????????????????
Bob, I agree with you totally.

The two examples I gave, Jim Neaves and Brandon Stahl each had those benefits.

Jim worked for Gordon Mickens of Selway Archery before starting Centaur.

Brandon had a relative that showed him how to make bows, then he did it as a hobby for 13 years before starting Rose Oak Creations as a business.

Your point was certainly made with an exclamation   :bigsmyl:  

It should also be noted that Brandon doesn't make longbows and Jim doesn't make recurves.  They both seem very comfortable in their respective niches.
Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes....

Offline Otto

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2007, 11:20:00 AM »
Probably 20 yrs ago I went to one of the NMLRA shoots over in Friendship Indiana.  Wow!!!  Did I see some gorgeous stuff over there.  One of the items that caught my eye was a nice handmade possibles bag for holding powder, caps, balls etc...  Well, the guy wanted $100 for it.  $100 I said!!!!  Hell, I can make one for half of nuthin!!!!

I go back home, and head to the local leather shop and buy some leather, some awls, some artifical sinew and proceed to make my own.  Well after about a week of cutting patterns, marking and punching holes, running sinew through all those holes, my fingers were sore and about half bloody.  I did it right though.  Sewed it inside out and then turned it right side in so the stiches wouldn't show.  It turned out first class.  Finally I had it finished and decided to add up all of my costs, mat'l, tools, and finally labor.

If I coulda sold that bag for $300 I still woulda been in the hole.
Otto

Offline DAS Kinetic

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2007, 11:51:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NightHawk:

  Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
 
That's not what I meant at all, and it should be pretty obvious.  A Timex is not a foul on a Rolex, but a chinese "Roleks" is.  Samicks copy of a Black Widow is too.  These are products designed specifically to capitalize on another products appearaance, prestige, or market.  There are plenty of less obvious examples in the trad world where specific details or methods have been lifted.  You are right that making gains in design are tough to do because of the long evolution of the bow.  That's why any gains require so much time, ingenuity, and money to achieve.  What makes the theft of these things so egregious in this community is the scale of the damage done.  Your not talking about something that results in a 1/10 of a percent reduction in a stockholders portfolio.  We're talking about a group of crafts people who exist on the edge of financial solvency under the best of conditions.

David

Offline Papa Bull

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2007, 11:54:00 AM »
I wish I'd have learned the value of quality when I was 18 years old instead of spending years "saving bucks" and then being unsatisfied with my purchases.  I would be a lot richer in many ways if I had never gone cheap and just bought the best in things I really wanted.  Not only would I have saved the $$$ from multiple purchases of barely adequate or inadequate products, but I'd have enjoyed the use of high quality stuff that lasts the whole time.

Offline Lenny Stankowitz

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2007, 12:32:00 PM »
Ultimately, every product sells for what it's worth.  Contrary to popular belief, the consumer sets the price, not the producer.  That's simply the way things work in a capitalist society.  Things can be different when there is a monopoly involved but sooner or later, in a free market, the price of every product will be set by demand, perceived value, customer service and availability.

Black Widow and a few others have succeeded in what they do because they build a quality product, they focus on customer service, they have a stellar reputation, they continually try to improve their product without losing site of what it is that people like about them.  They have been "copied" many times but they just keep on getting bigger.  In their hayday, Bear archery was the same way.

Bowyers are not unique in having expenses to run their businesses.  I have astronomical insurance costs, not only for me but for my employees.  Tack on liability insurance, workmans comp., retiremet,  trucks, trailers, tools, advertising, delays, subcontractor costs, cost of building supplies, and the list goes on and on and on.  If someone wants to build a house just like mine, I don't have a thing to say about it, nor should I or would I.  If I or a customer pay an architect to design a custom home, there is absolutely nothing that stops the next guy from taking a picture of it and building one for himself or an entire development full of them for that matter.  If someone wants to build the same bow or close to the same bow as someone else, how is that different that a customer having 3 or 4 or 5 different contractors bidding on the same job?  If someone is undercutting me, either he has found a way to do what I do more efficiently, he is cutting corners, or it could be that in the end, I am just making a better quality, more innovative product.  In case number one, either I get more efficient or I starve.  In the second or third example, people will understand why I charge more and if the quality of my product is worth it to them, they will choose me.  If there truly is no perceived value, I will go out of business.  

I compete 24/7 with dozens of different contractors in my immediate area alone.  I don't complain when someone else gets their builder's license nor do I complain when someone decides to install aluminum facia the same way I do so it doesn't buckle.  After all, I copied it from someone else.  I do the very best I can do for each customer, charge a fair price over and above my expenses and I seem to have more work than I can do.  Quality always sells.  I don't ever worry about what modular home manufacturers are doing becuase the people that are in the market for that type of home are not potential customers of mine anyway.

I say build what you build, constantly try to improve on your designs and methods, and let the customer decide.

  :thumbsup:

Offline DAS Kinetic

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2007, 01:05:00 PM »
I understand exactly Lenny.  If I needed a new rifle, I'd be much smarter to buy it out of Vinny's van down the street.  His prices are about 1/2 what the local gunshop charges, and after all, he's a small businessman too.  He's just found a better way to compete, that's all.  If he doesn't have exactly what I want, he can usually "find" it in a week or two, and I don't have those irritating back ground checks to mess with either.  Everyone wins!  I feel just fine about the guns I've bought from Vinny.  He's carrying on an age old tradition and I'm getting a great deal.  I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm just buying a gun for a good price and being a smart consumer.  If the local gunshop goes out of business, that's his problem.  He should have found a way to compete better just like Vinny.  If you can't compete, you get what you deserve.  The customer has spoken.

   That's all I've got say on this subject.

David

Offline Lenny Stankowitz

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2007, 01:26:00 PM »
:confused:  

Your example is not relevant, but you certainly are entitled to your opinion.  

If Vinny is selling used guns legally, he has every right to do what he does.  I could use the same comparison by saying that the only houses bought by anyone should be new ones, built by me of course.  Are we to assume that all used bow sales should be banned becuase it takes away a potential customer from a bowyer that is building new bows?  

Now, if Vinnie is selling guns illegally out of his van, he should go to prison.  If a builder is building houses without a license, not building to code etc., I shouldnt have to compete against that.  To the best of my knowledge, that's not what we are talking about here...or is it?  Comparing that to various bowyers, doing things legally, competing for business, is not only dishonest, but foolish.

Let's keep it real.

Offline Bob Morrison

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Re: What makes a $800.00 bow better than a $200.00 bow?
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2007, 02:10:00 PM »
Lenny, I think you got it..
   If a builder is building houses without a license, not building to code etc., I shouldnt have to compete against that.....
   Not Paying Fed Excise Tax, Not Having Liability Insurance Not paying state and local sales tax, Not paying workers comp...
   Whats the difference?
   Having been a custom home builder for over 30 yrs. I do know a little about this also. And if you built two homes yourself as a spec homes side by side on different nice sized lot so they are in a good setting. And you built both of them exactly the same. $500000. and One you didn't have to pay any permits no workerscomp,Liability insurance . This house sells for $475,000 and the front door needs replaced. I'm pretty sure 99% of the buyers can get a front door replaced and That home will sell faster. and if you had 3 of them the same way they would all sell before your $500.000.

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