How much heat can a carbon shaft stand?

[Bladepeek]

I was reading through the thread on the "perfect arrow" and looking at the bent brass insert. I don't see any trace of epoxy on the insert. Either this is a "staged" picture just for demonstratiion purposes, or that was a lousy epoxy bond between the shaft and the insert.

I use a German epoxy, UHU glue, in my knife making. I have only seen the UHU here in the States as a glue stick similar to the glue on sticky notes. They do make a heat setting epoxy, however, of the slow curing variety. Working time is up to 2 hours and 24 hour setting time at room temperature. As the temp is increased, however the curing time decreases and the tensile strength increases. At 400 degrees F, it cures in 10 minutes and has triple the strength of room temp cured epoxy.

I usually cure my knife handles at 170 degrees F unless it is a sensitive handle material such as ivory. If it's something really tough, like Micarta, I run it up to 250 - 300 degrees F.

On a few occasions, I have had to(wanted to?) remove the handle scales. I can grind the scales down to the epoxy and I still can't peel that epoxy skin off the steel with a sharp chisel. I have to grind it right down to the bare steel.

Hence my question - how much heat can a carbon shaft stand without weakening it? If it can tolerate 170 decrees F (which is as low as my oven will go), I guarantee I can epoxy an insert into the shaft that will NOT separate from the shaft even when it is bent.

[Pat B.]

Ron, for several years I used slow cure J-B Weld for both the inserts and broadhead adapters to broadheads.  It was pretty fail proof.  After a while I quit and went to hot melt because when the components were epoxied they were difficult, if not impossible, to seperate. When the components are clean the hot melt holds quite well and is easily reversible in the event you want to use a different weight adapter or other change..  I don't think I'd like a permenant bond on arrow components anymore.
   I have ruined a few carbon shafts with heat trying to seperate inserts, etc. But have no idea of the actual temperature before failure.
    Do you have a business web page ?

[Gdpolk]

Mine have tolerated hot melt by heating the inserts hot enough to apply hot melt to, inserting the inserts, then cooling them under cool running water.  After I got all my tuning done, I removed the inserts, burned off the hot-melt from the inserts, and affixed them permanently with JB Weld 2-part epoxy.  Despite repeatedly going stumping and small game hunting (bouncing arrows off live tress and rocks), they have not failed me yet.

[Bladepeek]

Hi Pat,
In reverse order, no I don't have a web page. I only make 6 - 8 knives a year as a hobby. Some pics of my knives:

 http://s299.photobucket.com/user/bladepeek/library/Ron%20Peek%20Knives?sort=3&page=1

I also use hot melt for my inserts and just melt a drop of beeswax on the threads of my screw-in points. I like to be able to break the point loose with just a pair of pliers without heating up the insert/shaft bond. I also like to be able to remove the inserts in case I want to add some internal weights if I'm really feeling anal.

I was just addressing the brass insert that was bent on a 45-degree impact with a steel plate but showed no sign of having been glued in as described.

[McDave]

Whenever I want to be extra sure that I don't damage a carbon shaft, I boil it until the insert comes loose.  I've never had a carbon shaft damaged that I have boiled. So I would say 212 degrees F is pretty safe.

If it won't come loose boiling, then I have to heat the tip until it comes loose.  That usually works okay too, but at times the inside of the carbon shaft will start to unravel, and I have to cut an inch or so off the shaft (assuming there is enough length to allow that) to where it is still good.

Bear in mind that whatever you come up with, most of us want to be able to remove the insert if needed.

[Bladepeek]

McDave, you beat my second post    

I agree.

Ron

[JRY309]

I know there are some low temp hot melt some like to use in carbons.For me personally I never put any heat on my carbons.I use a slow cure 24 hr. epoxy for my inserts,but the key in installing inserts is to properly prep the shafts before any gluing.I haven't had any of my inserts pull out using a slow cure 24 hr. epoxy.

[halfseminole]

It honestly depends on the resins used in layup.  I've used stuff that could withstand prolonged contact with a blowtorch, and I've seen stuff that caught fire when we tried it.  But 212F or so should be a walk in the park.  Many of the resins cure at higher temps internally.