HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

[far rider]

Okay, stupid question #113.
When you guys reference brace height as a certain measurement "fistmele" what are you saying. Is it a point of reference such as deepest part of the grip, or a certain way of measuring?

Tim

[Ric O'Shay]

Tim -
Different bowyers have different reference points for their own brace height. Some measure the deepest part of the grip to the string, some measure from the belly of the bow to the string and others measure from the back of the bow to the string. Most bowyers will tell you where and how they measure.

It's all good, you just need to know if you are talking about apples or oranges or fruit cakes.    

[Brianlocal3]

Tim,
In reference to your new Berry, measure from the belly side of the shelf to your string

[far rider]

Ok Brian. I had always...well maybe not always, but I remember reading that brace was measured from the deepest part of the grip. Your saying measure from the edge of the shelf on the belly side which would be the closest spot to the string. That correct?

Tim

[SlowBowinMO]

I tested brace height and speed one day with a chronograph.  An inch of draw length was good for about 10-12 fps (say going from 28" to 29" draw with the same arrow).  An inch of brace height change only yielded about 1 fps gain (for example dropping from 7.5" to 6.5").

Made sense to me since the bow is at the end of its power stroke by the time it hits the brace height adjustment, whereas its at the peak of its power when you add an inch of draw length.

Obviously a proper brace is huge during tuning for proper shooting qualities though.

FWIW.

[Nattybumppo]

Finally... The longest running thread I have ever seen on any forum... I finally get to get in on it!!!

This is my first HIll bow. Howard HIll Archery Cheetah. 66" 44# @ 28". Right now I am shooting some old Buckbuster 45/60s out of it with inserts and 140 gr Magnus. And it's shooting good. I am enjoying it. Definite shooting style change for me. But the bow is so light and easy to carry and FUN!

[Overspined]

Great discussion. I measure brace as described from belly of shelf to the string.

Besides arrow velocity and all, it's curious how I have given the low brace a go without success, yet others can pull it off.  

It must have something to do with follow through and finger release characteristics/torque where the arrow's paradox aligns just right and allows for clean arrow flight.  I would bet the string/arrow reaction to the loose may be quite different from shooter to shooter. I tend to torque the string a little by pulling my ring finger outward a bit, I do notice when I clean that up arrow flight and accuracy is super clean.

I remember when I heard of a few shooters having success with low brace heights, I experimented until I was really frustrated and added some twists.

I haven't ever noticed large differences in arrow speed for brace adjustments, but I'm sure that could be different between bows/designs.

[centaur]

Not to mention that Cheetahs are good looking.
 
Love the look of juniper.

[far rider]

You know what James, that is one of the most endearing things about Hills. Their simplicity and feather light feel. I've always thought Cheetahs were the nicest looking STOCK bows Craig makes. Hard to beat the juniper. They are also the softest shooting ones in the lineup in my opinion. At least mine is the gentlest one on my rack. Looks like an ebony riser? There is one for sale currently on TAS nearly identical but a bit heavier.
Great catch!

Tim

[Jacquesbonin]

James,congrats,it won't be the only one you'll own! I have several more than I should,it becomes addictive, enjoy! Welcome to the Hill family! Jacques

[Overspined]

Welcome nattybumpo!  Nice bow!!  Seems shooting styles with Hill style bows evolve for a very long time so stick with it.

With all the variables that we are able to change, what does the clan here think has made the biggest difference in accuracy using Hill style bows?

What about bow performance?

[David Mitchell]

Overspined, I can't pull off the low brace thing either so you are not alone.  Fact is, I hate it every time I have tried it! Go with what works for you--nobody, not even the bowyer, can predict what will work FOR YOU!

[far rider]

IMO....which isn't worth a lot. I was having a discussion with a fellow a short while back, and we were discussing bow lengths, ie...66" vs 68" etc. His play was that shorter bows braced properly held more energy at the same draw all the way up to the arrow release than the longer bows. This makes sense since your tapping into more stored energy etc as you reach your anchor. I feel tiller has something to play in this also.

So, it would stand to reason (at least in my brain, scary), that a properly tillered bow for a certain length when braced perfect would expend it's peak energy into the arrow at the the perfect moment of the arrow leaving the string. So a higher than optimal brace would have the arrow leaving the string during the upward energy trend and prior to peak energy moment, and a low brace would be worse as the bow has now lost energy and the arrow is "pulling" the string for an instant.

Am I anywhere near the mark?

Of course there is also the variable of arrow weight, spine, and point weight. Seems that would change with different setups.

Tim

[Dave Thaxton]

Very interesting reading the brace height thoughts and processes. Please allow me to divert attention for just a moment. Within the next week I will be ordering a new bow from Craig. Am I correct that the concensus is that the majority of Ekin Hills come in 4-5 #'s heavier than marked? Just wanting to  be sure about this before placing an order. Thanks for your reply.
Not new to Hill bows...just going home!

[canopyboy]

Originally posted by Nattybumppo:
...and FUN!

Darn tootin'!

[canopyboy]

Originally posted by Dave Thaxton:
Very interesting reading the brace height thoughts and processes. Please allow me to divert attention for just a moment. Within the next week I will be ordering a new bow from Craig. Am I correct that the concensus is that the majority of Ekin Hills come in 4-5 #'s heavier than marked? Just wanting to  be sure about this before placing an order. Thanks for your reply.
Not new to Hill bows...just going home!

For awhile that was definitely the case.  But I thought a few people have recently had them come in very close.  If it were important to me, I would express my concerns to Craig over the phone when I placed my order and get his opinion.  Otherwise, if you order down a few pounds and he nails it, you've got a bow lighter than you wanted... (Not always a bad thing.)

I wonder with the Hills if it was the difference between the string they were tested with and the fast flight that guys put on later. Another good one bow weight. A friend of a friend bought a digital bow scale, it was perfect. You could read the number and everything. Problem was two 25 pound dumbells tied together weighed 53.85 pounds. On a tested balance scale they weighed 50 pounds.
About brace adjustments. On some bow designs,recurves, brace heights will not show as much speed differences. Far Rider is correct. Another odd thing that I have noticed. Bows that shoot nice with a lower brace, shoot a faster arrow than a longbow that needs a higher brace, even if both bows are set at the same brace height.  I think it has to do with the timing of when the limb is dumping its energy. Many times when guys need a higher than average brace for a particular bow, the culprit is arrow spine. They may have either chosen too stiff an arrow or their release is softer which requires a lower spine. As an example, I have two identical bows. The right hand one likes 1918s cut to 27" bop with anything from 125 screw ins to 160s glued onto glue-in adapters, which happen to be just a few grains heavier than 145 screw target points on the arrows with the screw-in insert.  The left hand bow only likes the 125 grain screw-ins if I make certain that my release is as hard as I can make it when I am in my back yard. When I go out stump shooting and I am shooting at 45 yard stuff, both bows like the same shaft set ups. In my back yard, I tend to shoot a bit soft left handed, even though when shooting a much heavier left/right hand bow I feel stronger left handed. My point is that there is a physical reason for everything. If you want to squeeze out some more speed and your bow is one of those that shoots a faster arrow with a lower brace, the problem could perhaps be solved by going to a softer arrow. I think that I get by with more tolerance with net length cedars than with aluminum or graphite arrows cut longer. My former Schulz would shoots everything from extra heavy for the spine tapered cedars from 75 pound spines all the way down to 60 pound spines. If I broke off a point I would just put on a blunt and I would still get good arrow flight with either arrow. When tried to set up a net length aluminum, I had to drop way down to a 2016 and then find much heavier points to make it work. The weight spread from target point to broadhead was too much, considering that the broahead arrows were 2018s with 160 grain broadheads, so I went back to cedars. Some bows shoot nice with a B50 string and some are horrible. When I find a bow that shoots nice with a B50, even if there are things that I like about what a fast flight does for it, I tend to prefer the B50. If I have a bow that will only shoot just good enough with a fast flight and is just horrible with a B50, the temptation to attack it with a file and sandpaper is at times overwhelming.  
How about that for a rant.

[typical2]

Anything in literature that tells what Howard set his brace at?

I have never read a specific measurement, Schulz said that Hill said the string should hit your armguard. Farrider, I do not think that the arrow would actually be pulling on the string, that would take a really tight nock. However, I saw a film back in the 70s of bows shooting. One that really struck me was a recurve that the string let go of the arrow before brace height in the act of shooting. It was pointed out, that particular bow was not only the loudest tested, but also the least accurate. A couple of bows on that film, drove the string nearly all the way to the grip. It seems that if a bow has all kinds of drive left at the end of the power stroke that it actually can unbend to less than brace, it could have a hand shock problem.  That is possibly why some longbows shoot so much better with a fast flight, that lack of stretch keeps the limbs from bottoming out. That also could be why on one of my favorite right hand longbows, that there is very little difference between a fast flight and a B50, my from a Hill blank yew. The limbs don't bottom out, nor do they let go of the arrow to soon. No, it is not for sale. I have found that for my R/D bows that are set closer to the max, show no noticable speed lost, there maybe some, but I cannot see it.

[Overspined]

A couple LB's I have are B50 only, and after tinkering with strings, I have to say its a really comfortable material to shoot. It's quiet with a lower pitch "sound", if you call it that, and has a soft feel in the fingers. That said, I still tend to shoot skinny 6 strand 450+ strings on most LB's. Now it's about arrow spine more than anything else because I'd have to re-tune.

Pavan, good point on the bow scales.  They often aren't calibrated.  The last two HHA bows I had were 50/50. One was good, the other 4# heavier than stated. They will fix it if a mistake was made.